2,151

(81 replies, posted in Politics)

Muslims indeed had a large share in getting europe out of the so-called "middle ages". Although, a lot of ideas and prejudgements should be abandoned. The middle ages were not the dark and unknowing times people often think of them. They had a whole different way of thinking (and I'll spare you examples and such, as it would most likely give you a wrong idea anyway). Medieval people were, in the first place, very practical people.

The Middle ages were not illiterate and intelligence forsaken, but intellectual work and such folded back onto a very small minority in the early middle ages, only to slowly spread into a wider part of the population (I'm going to refer to Elias' "process of civilisation" here). That what we call "humanism" (renaissance is meant for the art aspect of that time) is merely the city elite starting to participate in that intellectual proces and increased contacts between people due to a grown population. Thus, the "revival" as it's being percepted today is a hyperbole.
Also, there were other"renaissances", namely the karolingian and the 12th century renaissance.

Now, to reach my conclusion: What was the role of the Muslims? They held libraries that were vast, and beyond anything alike in the christian world at that time, they had a far wider and more thorough intellectual interest during the entire "medieval times" (they also had the benefits of sharing borders with Persia, Byzantium and later on India. While most of Europe wasn't that urbanised). There were places that acted like "gateways" of intelligent works. Some examples: Spain, Sicily (where Barbarossa's son was educated), Malta etc. In all these cases, the contact was with muslims, and they provided either new works, or better versions of known works (that were often summarised in compenia like Suetonius' work.

So, yes, the muslims did help with the intellectual bloom of humanism (or renaissance), but it wasn't the only responsible factor.

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Now some comments:

"Europe just got wealthier from trade and farming techniques, which allowed an academic class to develop. Sure the academics got access to classical western information preserved and copied by the muslims, but to be honest the muslim intellectuals were just as lame as the scholastic intellectuals in the renaissance. They didn't even come close to measuring up to the Greeks. The changing academic and intellectual atmosphere, in other words, was caused by the changing social organization and economic conditions of Europe. You don't have time for contemplating philosophy when you're either training for war or the clergy, or are a malnourished peasant."

Economy is one thing, but there were many other things that allowed this change. Like a grown population, accumulation of intellectual works, and many more. But it's a false argument that both scholastic and muslim intellectuals were "lame". I've read both of them, and it's stunning how advances their thinking actually is, but it's a totally different way of thinking than we have (wich is heir to the 17th century "scientific revolution"). In certain ways, they surpassed the greeks, who were rather lazy and reasonably counterproductive. One can argue that we idolise the greeks so much cause their texts managed to survive so long tongue

"Well the muslims enjoyed the advantage of conquering urban societies, and their culture was trade friendly. That permitted the conditions for a more intellectual-friendly society. The Europeans began to move out of the dark ages when people started to settle in towns beginning within Italy and Flanders, and a commercial society was slowly established. What's funny is that a lot of people moved to those towns to escape the nobility, rofl.
Yes, Western Europe ruralized around the time of Emperor Diocletian, and the huge cities of the Roman empire started to depopulate as people moved out in to the country. Starting with the renaissance, people were moving back in to the cities and founding new ones (though the cities weren't nearly as big as they were under Augustus)."

European cities were growing a lot sooner than the renaissance era. Most cities were founded in the 9th - 11th century, and the largest growth of the cities was in the 12 - 13th century, wich was primarily a population expantion, as a lot of new urban villages were founded in that period (referred to in the dutch historic litterature as "de grote ontginning"). Regional differences do exist, but it's undisputable that it happened before the renaissance. You seem to contradict  yourself with this even Justinian. You claim that it was trade and growing cities that enabled renaissance, while you say that it was in the renaissance period that the cities actually started expanding. You are correct that an economic expantion was needed for the renaissance, but as I said briefly above, there were other renaissances as well, and what makes it them different is the increased population, and with that the larger density and unification of people and with that a lot more contact between them. That is what made the 15th century renaissance 'succesful'

2,152

(81 replies, posted in Politics)

"Iran is not Arab and probably won't mind liberating the sunni shrine of the Dome of the Rock by glazing it. "

The Dome of the rock is not sunni. It's a neutral muslim place wink

"And i know Iran is persian and not arab... But the countries surrounding israel are arab and in the case of an attack probablly Irans allies."

I think the persian - arab dichotomy is here not relevant. After all, it's the "arab culture" that's currently in power, and that one tries to minimalise the impact of the "persian heritage".

2,153

(29 replies, posted in General)

At least you have the best of both worlds smile

2,154

(34 replies, posted in General)

working at home!

2,155

(52 replies, posted in Politics)

The dutch royal family look like potatoes though..

"Go for more EU dubba. What you propose would mainly cost money and bring forth a mess and unhappy populations."

No one considers this thread as serious tongue

2,156

(428 replies, posted in Community)

I see Lat. Well, I guess I'm just suffering from the inferiority complex you exact scientists brought down on historians. tongue
For what it's worth, I dislike word too, I use Corel's Wordperfect..

2,157

(428 replies, posted in Community)

Latex may be a very awesome tool, Lat. I'm not saying that. But it's a bit like a prosthetic leg, isn't it? It might be as good as it can be, it's still more annoying than the normal equivalent (in this case a regular text writer)..

2,158

(11 replies, posted in General)

The Dubliners did make it famous indeed.
And I consider that to be Metallica's only good song tongue They wandered off enough to actually make an entire new song out of it..

2,159

(428 replies, posted in Community)

We, historians, don't use that crap. tongue
A plain, well written, text will do..

2,160

(52 replies, posted in Politics)

"especially ones like netherlands and belgium because their cultures and people are so similar.  but aside from those countries being pointlessly irrelevant to the rest of the world i have nothing constructive to say so ill just leave it at that"

irrelevant when it comes down to the great international politics perhaps, but very relevant when it comes down to culture, history and so on.

And indeed, ZoZ. You just have to love'em tongue

2,161

(52 replies, posted in Politics)

The royal family is not that unpopular, although it's often critisized. I prefer a merger through a wedding!

2,162

(25 replies, posted in General)

Yeah, burning it slower usually does the trick smile

2,163

(29 replies, posted in Politics)

"How about a Carrier battle group ??
A squadron of F-22 Raptors/Formation of B-2 bombers ??
An Armored Cavalry Regiment/ Marine Expeditionary Force"

Those aren't formations, those are types of units tongue

2,164

(29 replies, posted in Politics)

What is it then BW?

2,165

(29 replies, posted in Politics)

Yup, and some sort of fascist idolation of your leader (you already have a fascistoid idolation of your country already, so you're nearly there!) tongue

2,166

(52 replies, posted in Politics)

"But what is going to be the new name?"

Good question, but I think most of us would settle for "De Nederlanden"

And Biefstukfriet, I'd prefer the 17 provinces to be reunited, rather than just the dutch talking part tongue As much as some people try to deny, the frenchtalking part has many (historic, economical, social) ties with the dutchtalking part of belgium (more than with the dutch).

Oh, and the belgian schoolsystem should be adopted throughout the entire nation. And the king-problem can be solved by scrapping the belgian law that Belgian Kings can't marry one of the Dutch monarchy. We force prince Gabri

2,167

(27 replies, posted in Community)

Congrats Sky!

2,168

(6 replies, posted in General)

Since th' thar's no real topic left, this thread is closed.  (Sorry Alcheh!)

2,169

(6 replies, posted in General)

I'm movin' this t' General (from community), where more silly comments will find their way t' this topic!

2,170

(14 replies, posted in General)

I've had it with th' dozens an' dozens o' "pirate day sucks".  As arsy said, if ye dern't want yer posts t' be altered, put a % in th' first line, or edit it.  And 'tis only once a month fer pete's sake!

2,171

(11 replies, posted in General)

An IQ test can be used to prohibit the smarter ones tongue

What about making different galaxies for different IQ ranges?

2,172

(2,376 replies, posted in General)

Virginia Astley - Charm

2,173

(2,376 replies, posted in General)

Awesome track Arnout!

Woven Hand - Story and pictures

2,174

(6 replies, posted in General)

Hurrah for SD big_smile

2,175

(2 replies, posted in General)

*is puzzled*