the way you ask the questions I feel that you're seeking an answer either a or b
I want to actually answer the question rather than choose a or b
language confuses me sometimes cause using different words in place of others can sometimes lead to fits of rage in trying to puzzle out the exact question one is asking. Give me simple, I'll give you simple, give me complex, I'll give you a bloody nose and a painful shin.
Do you think that the normatives we generally agree on exist independently of custom and our motivations?
no, normatives cannot exist independently because if it did, then it wouldn't exist because ideals cannot exist without people to hold (on) to them. Air is independent, normatives are dependent. I'm sure animals don't give a damn about justice or logic. So they are out of the picture. That leaves us, unless plants can reason...oh, they can't? Are you sure? I think a venus fly trap tried talking to me yesterday! Although that was probably it trying to eat me...oh it wasn't? Ok. X(
normatives cannot exist independently. Stop trying to ask questions that are one sided. I doubt one can find a good argument that normatives (in the way you describe) can exist independently of a person.
one can argue that sociology answers this same question. In regards to studying how each society acts and does things. Now from the looks of things, either you're an idiot, or you're just trying to stir trouble. I'd have to pick the former, after reading a handful of posts from a handful of people here.
look on the brightside though, we're all idiots, just not all the time! ![]()