1 Topic by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 05-Aug-2009 12:21:13)

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Topic: Normatives

First, I'll explain the difference between normative and positive statements. In brief, normative statements affirm the value of certain things, states or actions, and what the state of affairs and our actions ought to be. The statement that killing is wrong is an example of a normative, implying that killing has a low value and ought to not be pursued. In contrast, positive statements only describe. The statement that it is 80 degrees outside is a positive statement.

My question is this. Do you think that the normatives we generally agree on exist independently of custom and our motivations? In other words, do you think a value like equality (or substitute it with anything else we generally value) is valuable because A) equality is only valuable to the people motivated to manifest it, or B) equality is valuable independently of whether people are motivated to manifest it.

In my case, I agree with A. Although I really don't value equality very much except when it's necessary for accomplishing something else I value.

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Re: Normatives

^ doesn't answer the question

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Re: Normatives

...

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4 Reply by avogadro (edited by avogadro 05-Aug-2009 14:47:36)

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Re: Normatives

"i can't answer why equality is valuable if i don't think it is, now can i?"

yes, its possible; however, i guess that lvl of reasoning skills is beyond you.

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5 Reply by Ouro (edited by Elrohir 06-Aug-2009 12:59:46)

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Re: Normatives

[roar. they call me the insulting troll]

normative? positive? both?

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

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6 Reply by ~E (edited by ~E 06-Aug-2009 15:05:21)

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Re: Normatives

kinda a hard question, for to what extend can you cal something motivated, and aren't all things a bit motivated for everything happens for a reason?

and there are people whom break these norminatives, which means they didn't have the motivation for obbeying or whatever so...

"'******? Worthless things like that,
I never had them for as long as I can remember!"
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Re: Normatives

i was wondering how long the mods would let me keep that dis up.

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

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Re: Normatives

didn't they allready edit it?  Last edited by Elrohir (Today 13:59:46)

"'******? Worthless things like that,
I never had them for as long as I can remember!"
Evil Dark Ninja Hargora

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Re: Normatives

it stayed up for a whole day though

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

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10 Reply by ~E

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Re: Normatives

actually not yet I think? 22hrs, two hours less tongue
but now I haven't seen what it actually said sad

"'******? Worthless things like that,
I never had them for as long as I can remember!"
Evil Dark Ninja Hargora

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Re: Normatives

the way you ask the questions I feel that you're seeking an answer either a or b

I want to actually answer the question rather than choose a or b

language confuses me sometimes cause using different words in place of others can sometimes lead to fits of rage in trying to puzzle out the exact question one is asking. Give me simple, I'll give you simple, give me complex, I'll give you a bloody nose and a painful shin.

Do you think that the normatives we generally agree on exist independently of custom and our motivations?

no, normatives cannot exist independently because if it did, then it wouldn't exist because ideals cannot exist without people to hold (on) to them. Air is independent, normatives are dependent. I'm sure animals don't give a damn about justice or logic. So they are out of the picture. That leaves us, unless plants can reason...oh, they can't? Are you sure? I think a venus fly trap tried talking to me yesterday! Although that was probably it trying to eat me...oh it wasn't? Ok. X(

normatives cannot exist independently. Stop trying to ask questions that are one sided. I doubt one can find a good argument that normatives (in the way you describe) can exist independently of a person.

one can argue that sociology answers this same question. In regards to studying how each society acts and does things. Now from the looks of things, either you're an idiot, or you're just trying to stir trouble. I'd have to pick the former, after reading a handful of posts from a handful of people here.

look on the brightside though, we're all idiots, just not all the time! big_smile

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Re: Normatives

wow is this the kind of stuff BA students argue about all the time?

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Re: Normatives

lol @ tavius

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

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14 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 07-Aug-2009 20:32:17)

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Re: Normatives

Listos,

The inspiration of the question is that people act as though their normative beliefs, such as their values, are objectively true. I often hear debates where someone like Fokker will complain that the world IS messed up because there is no equality and justice. My view is that the only reason he sees the world that way is because he perceives the state of affairs to conflict with how they actually ought to be. Likewise, a Christian fundie sees sexual promiscuity as being immoral because they see God's law as something people actually ought to obey. Essentially, they see their selected normatives as existing independently of people.

On the other side, a person who holds that normatives owe their existence to people will not pretend that their values are objectively true. In my case, my normatives depend on my own motivations and social learning. In my case I value knowledge that can be tested empirically. I don't hold that knowledge must be empirically testable because there is some objective law that demands it, but because I am motivated to value it.

That's what I'm talking about.

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Re: Normatives

ok then, in that regard, I feel that I have to agree with Deci...much to my horror...even though he's a stand up fellow wink...what is a negative statement?

that we may all have...ehm, all the facts tongue

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Re: Normatives

There isn't a negative statement in this context.

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Re: Normatives

basically he is saying if people didnt exist, would killing someone still be wrong. this is the stupidest thread ever made.

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