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french vict.. what!
Lies.
Anything before 1900 was made up. By Unicorns (evil things, you know).
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These stats were compiled by a Chinese group based off of stability and base of a nations power, basically, it's mark, or endurance as a nation - Not military power alone, or economic for that part, but everything as a whole.
Infact, it's appaling that Germany, a nation that time and time again has shown that it wants to be a leading nation in the EU refuses to properly use/fund it's military.
Case in point, Afghanistan. Caveat bonanza, what a travesty.
Germany wants a greater cooperation of the EU and an EU Military? Then who will be on the forefront fighting the EU's wars, hmm? Smaller nations with more guts like Denmark, Estonia and the Netherlands etc. (+plus France/Poland/UK ofc)
I don't see Germany doing any fighting, as such I can understand why they're so eager to create an EU military, they won't do any of the bleeding but will reap all the benefits.
You really want a German war machine sitting on your doorstep?
Because its worked out so well in the past...
The Frenche pwnd us many times.. we pwnd the French many times back in return...
If u see it only military i think france really is stronger then germany.. more experiance.. while german military really is doing only peacekeeping missions.. which is good btw:P
Economically Germany is far stronger then france though.
Anyways.. the numbers would had been intresting if we would have them from 5 years ago.. and maybe 5 years in the future.
a picture of the moment is never good to see something declining.
"You really want a German war machine sitting on your doorstep?
Because its worked out so well in the past..."
You don't really think the Germans will go conquering Europe again, do you? I think it's time to stop with the WWII stigma, something the Germans themselves should get over as well. Besides, I'm not talking about a German war machine, I'm talking about responsible use of their armed forces.
At the moment, the Germans are in the relative safe North of Afghanistan, whilst smaller nations like Denmark, Estonia, Astralia and the Netherlands are in the volatile and dangerous South. How can we trust German military solidarity in the EU military, when they even refuse to help out other nation's troops in the Southern Afghanistan when things get hectic and dangerous on the ground.
Though France is currently stronger than Germany militarily, I am sure the Germans could mobilize another army worthy of imperial expansion if they wanted to. However, I don't see why they would bother doing that given the political climate today.
"I'm not talking about a German war machine"
Really? Because the face of politics can change alot in hundred years. A war machine created during that time could be used by people in ways that you might not like.
Granted we wont be around, but thats not really the point.
Who knows. Maybe we'll be able to regenerate our cells or something within our lifetimes.
"Really? Because the face of politics can change alot in hundred years. A war machine created during that time could be used by people in ways that you might not like."
Then you can also not trust the French, Brits, or anyone for that matter. I think that Europe has come a long way since then. So what is your point then? Don't trust anyone? Now th
> Then you can also not trust the French, Brits, or anyone for that matter.
Exactly.
> Now th
Until the EU's armed actually has to be used for actions other than peacekeeping. Or for peacekeeping with a strong mandate. Let's also not forget that an EU military would be a combination of existing national armed forces. Countries won't abolish their own national armed forces so that they can focus fully on the EU military, not in a thousand years.
Add the EU natikons together (UK france germany) and the get a joint score of like 190 
america go suck it
You can't just throw them all on a heap and think it's badass. All those military assets but no airlifting capability, it's pathetic, really.
"Infact, it's appaling that Germany, a nation that time and time again has shown that it wants to be a leading nation in the EU refuses to properly use/fund it's military."
Yes, because we stick to our constitution and that says we may only use our army for defensive purpose. Having all that soldiers in Afghanistan allready is kind of a surprise. Also.. we are adding more troops now. and the north by far is not as safe anymore as it was.
Out constitution btw was kinda influenced by the allies after WWII and back then it was in their intrest that germany is not a military power anymore.. funnily the same people seem to have forgotten that and now love to blame us for being military inactive.
Also.. speaking of the EU.
Germany has most population.. most economy.. biggest military... but we do not have most political power due to EU organisation.
Following the Lisboa contract we are even more castrated now since a majority of relative population AND countries is requiered. so basically the 51% of smalles countries can block decisions the 49% big countries wanna do. even if the 49% have 90% of the population.
also remove that italy, france and the UK have same ammount of votes as germany does. then you can come complain about us lazy germans do not do enough.
btw.. after the US and the UK germany contributes most troops to afghanistan..
http://www.nato.int/isaf/docu/epub/pdf/isaf_placemat.pdf
and i totally have to agree to skoe.. a european army would be kind of a good sollution.
"Yes, because we stick to our constitution and that says we may only use our army for defensive purpose."
That's a poor excuse. Amend it. The nations requesting more aid seem to think Germany of today is trustworthy enough to be granted with a more active military role. As things stand now, Germany is to passive a nation to ever take on a leader role in the EU. If would hate to think what would happen if we ever were to come into a military crisis.
Will German nationals in the EU military be allowed to conduct offensive actions, or will the biggest military in the EU be delegated to logistics and peacekeeping, hm?
"after the US and the UK germany contributes most troops to afghanistan.."
They would've been of more use in Southern Afghanistan where things are fas more dire. The situation in Afghanistan would've been far more stable right now if nations like Germany (but also France, untill recently) would pull their weight more. Biggest military in the EU and still miles behind the UK, that's not a good signal and a slap in the face of both NATO and the EU, not to mention the Afghan people.
The constitution says that the Bundeswehr can only be used for defensive actions.
A European army would not be the Bundeswehr anymore i think so i guess our constitution would have no effect on it (if that is right or wrong is a totally different topic).
As I stated above Germany is NOT the leading country of the EU..and the EU is not made to have something like a leadercountry.
If you want germany to be leading country in the EU we would need to change the way the EU works.
About southern Afghanistan.. we now can start wondering.. are the germans in the north because it is more safe? or is the north more safe because the germans are there? or is the north more safe because there are no US troops? I do not know. Moving those 3000 german troops from north to south now.. would it solve problems in the south? would new problems occur in the north?
I do not know... do you?
For Afghanistan we need a different plan.. moving around 3-6k troops wont flip the coin.
Also.. throwing in 3000 unexperianced german troops into the battle would for sure help us all...
Slap in the face for NATO? Maybe... also.. what is NATO there for? Didnt NATO loose its purpose whith the decline of UDSSR?
Ow wait.. yes.. NATO is there to give some hope to georgia and ukraine.. i forgott....
and the EU is not a military union.
For the afghan people.. you are right.. it may be a slap in their face.. like they get millions. The north.. where the germans are now.. i relatively safe as you say.. far not as safe anymore as it was 2 years ago. I would say so far the germans had been a big help for afghan people.. even if its only those in the north.
I don't want the Germany to be the leader. Germany itself wants that, or to be the most powerful amongst equals, atleast. But atm the French are the leaders, with Sarkozy running all over the place yelling stuff.
I do not propose to shift the Germans from North to South, I'd prefer to have another 3000+ new German troops, fully equiped and supported going to Afghanistan southern provinces. As for the relative peace in the North, the North has always been more 'peaceful' compared to the South, because the South is the Taliban's "Heimat". Another comparison about effort and amount of troops, Holland has around 1600 troops in Afghanistan (with it's own contingent of Apaches, F-16s and PHZ 2000's) and a planned reinforcement underway, Germany has only +- 1400 more. See the disparity of dedication/population/economy/military size?
As for combat experience, that you have to get by doing. Besides, plenty of Dutchies who would be willing to learn you the tricks of the trade.
The current destabilization of the North is a because violence from the South slowly but surely affecting the rest of the country too. That why it is so important to stabilize the South.
"Ow wait.. yes.. NATO is there to give some hope to georgia and ukraine.. i forgott...."
They're not member states, yet. I wished they'd be member states already but they're being blocked by some NATO members..
"They're not member states, yet. I wished they'd be member states already but they're being blocked by some NATO members.."
Yes and i hope germany will actively keep blocking them.
This is just not what NATO is there for.. they are neither north nor atlantic nations.
NATO is not there to take everyone who pretends to be a dempocracy and to piss of russia.
French atm are the leaders because they are the council leaders for this half year.. that may explain a lil:)
French btw usually is working very close with germany and in EU politics follows pretty much the same agenda.
I dont want germany to be leading nation either... the EU maybe should be organized as Germany is today.. as a federation of states..
military for example is done by the federation while education and healthcare and such is left to the single states...
for a european military where any EU citizens who wants can join.. and all these bullshit "aww you are so big.. send more troops" shizzle would be void.
See.. u are sending PHZ 2000 to afghanistan... german product.. good product.. its not we are not researching quiet good shizzle.
btw.. the recon job for your PHZ
>>And the US government is lacking in social welfare, and management of it's citizens.<<
It's the emergence of idiots who think like this in the US that threaten its current position. That many other nations embrace these self-righteously ignorant is why they're where they are and we are where we are.
I pray for my children's future.
"See.. u are sending PHZ 2000 to afghanistan... german product.. good product.. its not we are not researching quiet good shizzle."
But you're not using your shizzle either
"This is just not what NATO is there for.. they are neither north nor atlantic nations."
Semantics I think, NATO is called the "North Atlantic Treaty Organisation" because all it's founding members are from there, not because it's a north atlantic only organisation. It's also to signify the fact that it was in opposition to the USSR. It might be a good idea to re-think NATO's purpose and function in this new age. And protection smaller nations from semi-dictatorships like Russia is always good.
"French atm are the leaders because they are the council leaders for this half year.. that may explain a lil:)"
Nah, they're always loudmouthed and acting like mini napoleons. 
"btw.. the recon job for your PHZ
Here is how i see it... if european union were to band together as a military alliance, then they would need proper network of communications. This immediately raises the problem... what language to use? It is likely that english will be used since most already know it but others will simply refuse. This can cause chaos with some countries still speaking their native language in time of war. A neighboring country cough*russia*cough could just take advantage of this.
If they were not to band together as a military alliance, you still face the same problem. Not every country cooperating with every country. Also there will be civil unrest when people find out that only 20000 conscripts come from germany but 100000 conscripts come from france.
I think the EU should do what it is doing the best, an economic alliance. The military conflicts should be lead by the united states and backed up by the european nations.
A lot of countries in europe do not use conscripts anymore, that might be a hurdle as well. Will the EU military be proffesionals only? And if so, who would want to work for it?
"if things would be that easy.. poland would allready be ours agian:P"
mmmmmmmmmm.... poland....... get in my belly!!!!
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