Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Justinian, you make a good point. When I spoke of better healthcare and better education, there is some personal accountability that needs to be taken into account before we go crying to the government to kiss our wounds and make them better by writing yet another check. However, mostly the schools that have huge gymnasiums and the colleges with millions of dollars spent on building Stadiums are already pretty well off financially. You wouldn't see an inner city school in Richmond, Virginia, or Bridgeport, Connecticut, or Long Beach, California, or even in the rural hills of West Virginia spending millions on new sports complexes. Their number one goal is cutting down on truancy, reducing violence, and making sure as many students graduate as possible. I agree to some extent that some schools like Virginia Tech and University of Connecticut are well off enough financially that they could probably invest in their own stadium through tuition and donations if they wanted to. Rather than using state (or federal) funding. However, inner city high schools and smaller colleges don't get that funding. I think the reasoning behind giving VA Tech anything they want in terms of Football funding, is because it will bring in money to the local shops, bars, restaurants and spur growth in the local and state economy. It's probably not enough to offset the expenses, but I think that might be their reasoning. As for healthcare, stop the presses, because I, as a lifelong democrat, am about to agree with MIKE HUCKABEE!  In all seriousness though, he said something rather wise in an interview, about how problems like America's obesity problem is mostly self-induced and that we need to prevent unnecessary diseases like diabetes and heart problems in order to take some of the strain off the medical community and thus lower premiums, however, HMO's would still make a killing regardless of this. Meanwhile people who are working two jobs (both part time) can't get insurance that they badly need and they're certainly not being the lazy, welfare loving, fence hopping, food stamp swindling, radical leftists portrayed by BW. The key is to find a happy medium. You guys are right, Barack Obama can give all the money in the world, (including money that doesn't even exist) to the colleges, schools and sick people in question, and it won't do much good at all without proper reforms in education and healthcare. On that much we agree. However the Right has failed with policies such as "No Child Left Behind."  It's time we democrats get a chance to lead, because we certainly can't do any more damage than Bush has, and in all likelihood we'll make it a lot better. However, going back to personal accountability, this is something has been preaching about since the beginning of the primaries, if not before, and I honestly believe it's not just a sound-byte for the nightly news to playback when he says it. This election is a leap of faith, I admit, but it's not like Obama vs Reagan where I'd struggle with whom I should vote for. McCain, Kerry, Dole, Bush have all been weak, 2nd tier, candidates who only made it because their competition made errors of their own, and more likely than not, come Nov 4th all but one of them will have lost their respective elections.  The only exception is Bush, who lost the popular vote the first round, and who was up against Kerry the second time. (Who was also on that list i just mentioned.) So if I had to choose between Socialism and quasi-Fascism, (because that's the way this election has been conducted,) I'll choose Socialism any day of the week.

EmuHatPacket!
Parrot> he isn't a pickle
Parrot> or in the army
Lexuzis> wtf?
Parrot> fing liar

27 (edited by A10 22-Oct-2008 20:44:11)

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

BW. If you want to find out more about the "death tax", read this page:

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/vultures_death_taxes_more_falsehoods.html

They cite all of their sources.


>the rest of you are newbs and boneheads.

I can't take you seriously. You make a topic open for discussion and then refuse to hear others opinions. I refuse to read any more of your posts. Not even the rest of that one.


EDIT:

Oh and your right on that 1.3% number. It's actually 1.16%

I'm pulling that number from "Unspun Finding facts in a world of Disinformation." It's a good book. A little bit liberal but you should pick it up.

Rehabilitated IC developer

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

"yeah right avo.. in real it was a beer with coffee flavour;)"

ah, ok. one more quick question. whats healthier for babies, baby beer formula or getting their beer from mom?

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

boobeer?

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

> A10 wrote:

"It's a good book. A little bit liberal but you should pick it up."



Well as the wise Stephen Colbert once said, "The truth has a well known liberal bias." tongue

EmuHatPacket!
Parrot> he isn't a pickle
Parrot> or in the army
Lexuzis> wtf?
Parrot> fing liar

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@ 420  quickly on outsourcing.
The US doesn't sew shirts, and stamp pots.  Our labor wage is too high for that.
In the US, we manufacture the critical components of the automobile, then BOX IT, and SHIP IT to Mexico for assembly,....then ship it back to the US to sell.
This is because, its economical to do this, this makes the product CHEAPER for the consumer.  There is no Greed here, show me that.

Another example.  A Nike sub-contractor supplier has a shoe manufacturer in S. Cal.  The Local taxes are raised.  The Real Estate taxes go through the roof.  Environmentalists are screaming at them about the rubber disposal method.  A union is doing its best to enlist the workers.  The Rates for Workers compensation Insurance, Unemployment Insurance, Disability Insurance, and most importantly, Labor wage price is all raising.   California may be instituting a mandatory Health care coverage or co-pay for employers that have more than 50 members on their payroll.

The Manufacturer realizes his cost of making these shoe is getting to expensive.  Nike will not pay more for its service, and may look for another supplier.
What is the business owner to do ?   He looks to Mexico or the Asia economies for a place to build a new facility.   He finds just the place.
Nike gets its shoe.  The Consumer does not have to pay more for the Nike shoes they want, because the Supplier of the Nike shoe is able to deliver a product to meet Nike's demand.
Why is this manufacturer, taking all the risk, employing people in his home town......why is he evil ?


My wife pays for our health care in her job, because the Health care is part of her Employment.  Its built into her wage, and is a part of the COST of the Dept of Education to employ a teacher.


Selur, there is no "Sales Tax" at the Federal Level to replace.
"S" Corporations, or "Small Business" designation is tied directly to the business officers personal taxes.


@ Justinian.

Your write:
"The problem is not a lack of funding, but an inefficient system that needs dramatic reform. When tax dollars and tuition are supporting college sports team who can't pay for themselves and huge football stadiums, and high schools have huge gyms and swimming pools, you know something is just messed up. If we did something about our powerful teacher's unions and turned our schools in to facilities of education rather than entertainment, it would be a lot less expensive."

Dead on correct brother.

I will add to that:

1.  The History of the US, From the flight of religious persecution from Europe to the Colonies of England to the US Constitution is lost on the American Youth.
The history of the US, the freedoms of the US Constitution, and the American dream of business ownership and land ownership is lost on the youth.

History is taught about how EVIL white men destroyed the savage pagan Indian tribes.
History is taught how EVIL white men whipped black slaves, raped their black slave women.
History is taught how Liaise faire lead to the great depression and the savior ROOSEVELT was bestowed upon us.

2. Simply Economics is not taught.  Simple taxation, the fact that 40% of American workers DO NOT PAY Income tax.
The Fact that there is NOT ONE American that can not find some sort of Health care coverage.

No, what IS taught is how to put a condom on, that Abortion is a form of contraception, that Gay couples are equal to a married Man and Woman, and.....
Did I mention that the EVIL White man is to blame for all problems in life ?


trying the Left....trying out Socialism ??
Isnt it Great Britian that is trying to Privatize a portion of their health Care system ?


Schniep, have been reading up on the German Health care..... 13% of your income goes to health care ??  Taken out of your pay check ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@ A10

I answered your point.

You avoided mine.

over 600K in Net worth qualifies you for the death tax.....thats 1.16% of the population ?
You can gift out your estate, donate your estate, set up trusts, etc.

If you dont, you are screwed.

I, if I died, w/o a will would watch the Govt. come in and snatch up their share of the Net worth above 600K, before my wife and kids got what was left.
And it would be a Govt. weenie that would value the estate.

My wife would have to hire an attorney to fight for my estate.




Obama is going to do away with the trust funds and gifting aspects that are beyond the immediate family.
SO, instead of the Guggenheim's opening a Museum, or the Kennedy's buying new wing of a hospital, or the Carnage's donating their Art collection to a museum.....

Joe the Plumber, or Tim the Truck Driver, or Jack the Electrician, or Mary and John the Diner owners can not donate a large portion of their estate to the Red Cross, or to Cancer Research......

No.....

The Obama Govt. will confiscate the estate, and distribute the wealth as the Govt. Weenies see fit.
Just like Cuba's Castro, or now Venezuela's Chavez.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

33 (edited by Justinian I 23-Oct-2008 02:02:59)

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Emo,

You're right, some inner city schools can't afford really cool stadiums and so on, but they still have sports teams and they are expensive. I haven't done my research with high school sports, but I have no reason to believe they aren't much different from college ones. Colleges typically have their own sports teams, and only 8% of them are able to pay for themselves through tickets and merchandise etc. That means tax dollars and tuition are paying for them and athletic scholarships. Now, I do not mind sports, but it pisses me off when my tuition is paying for them.

BW,

There is some anti-American sentiment and guilt tripping in our schools, but I think you may be over blowing it. Also, we were required to take economics in order to graduate. I took AP economics, so I can't comment on the regular course, but we learned about the goodness of the free-market. The first day of class our teacher gave us a questionnaire of who should receive scarce resources, and after our answers he said that to think like an economist you have to figure out how to most efficiently distribute resources. That was the major theme of the class, efficient resource distribution, lol. And he did many class experiments, and the first one was proving that the free-market system was more efficient than a command or traditional economy. It was great stuff!

As for the estate tax. The estate tax used to qualify for estates worth $600,000, but atm it's $2 million. Next year it will be $3 million. In 2010 it will be repealed. It 2011 it will be $1 million.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

"
You're right, some inner city schools can't afford really cool stadiums and so on, but they still have sports teams and they are expensive. I haven't done my research with high school sports, but I have no reason to believe they aren't much different from college ones. Colleges typically have their own sports teams, and only 8% of them are able to pay for themselves through tickets and merchandise etc. That means tax dollars and tuition are paying for them and athletic scholarships. Now, I do not mind sports, but it pisses me off when my tuition is paying for them."

well in colleges, i imagine theres alot of Donations that go to Universities because of their football program which you totally ignore.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

That's part of the equation mister.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

orlly?

"only 8% of them are able to pay for themselves through tickets and merchandise etc"

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

I'm proud BW keeps a positive outlook, ebing certain he'll keep his business open atall.

I'll be glad when obama wins and we're all told to forget his stupid tax proposals, I hate being told to assume they're serious.  Either Pelosi is Speaker or Boehner is Speaker come January, either way his phony plan is DOA.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

> avogadro wrote:

> orlly?

"only 8% of them are able to pay for themselves through tickets and merchandise etc"

Keyword, "etc"

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

where do you get this statistic?

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

The % varies depending on the economical situation of your insurance company.

It depends how you see it.
I pay 6% of my monthly income as healthcare insurance. the other 6% are payed by my employer.
i pay those 6% of my gross income (dunno if gross is the correct word.. i mean pre tax though).
Max income is 3600

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@BW
do you like democracy at all? would you prefer a one-party system? it looks that way, because every other ideology seems to be the wrong way in your point of view.
the times change and as your plans show you will react. others will find a way to fill the economic gaps that an Obama administration will create. thats the free market. higher taxes? there are and will be gaps in the tax legislature to avoid taxes.

health care:
a few weeks ago i saw an documentation about a team of mobile doctors and dentist driving around in the US to help people who are not able to pay for basic medical help. this team of medicals used to work in south america before and is now doing their job in the richest nation on earth! and that was only one team of many others! i am and was shocked! every person has the right of good health care, even if some people cannot drive two times / year in the holidays, because they have to pay higher taxes. thats an act of christian mercy and the basis of modern western civilization.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

I love how all of this "help" the government offers in the form of sub-standard services is "SOOOOOO NEEDED" by society BECAUSE the tax the hell out of us to provide so many "SERVIVES" to the community.

I've been doing grad research on many philanthropic organizations in my city and "corporate citizenship" in the past few months. It's all about tax-deductable (that is, they pay less taxes for actual, real, needed government work to provide these donations for "servives") donations to non-profit organizations in the community. I grew up in a poor family. My father supported a family of 6 (4 kids). We're all white. I was one of the kids with "reduced lunch." He never tried to live beyond his means. With hard work and high test scores I applied for many and received enough scholarships to attend collage with minimal debt. This is DESPITE the fact that MANY more scholarships are offered to blacks, women, homosexuals, and other minorities. ALL of these "programs" and "servives" that are supported by the government (through direct support and tax-deductable corporate donations) never helped my working-class father and his family with a DIME.

My point is that most of the programs and services offered by the government to alleviate poverty don't do ANY good. Most of the people really working hard to improve their situation never seen an OUNCE of help from them. Their money mostly goes to help drug addicts buy more drugs and maintain a higher standard of living while changing nothing else. It DISGUSTS me that people like my father had to live and raise a family with less (while making such a low income) in order to support so many programs that never actually help the people they are claimed to be helping.

Helping those in need is a great aim. Doing it at the cost of putting more people in need while not actually helping those in need is disgusting. And that's the most any politician has ever actually done.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

On that note, two other things that disgust me:

Ignorant [ ] that will vote for whoever promises them the biggest handout. There are millions of them. And most of them have no shame. F[] THEM. If you shot them in the street in front of my eyes, I wouldn't see S[].

Ignorant upper-middle-class pricks who vote for democrats for the sake of their conscience, because they're as ignorant and self-serving as the previous group I've described. They have the extra income to buy their hybrid and pay the mortgage on their $300,000+ house and put their kids through college already. Paying an extra 10%-20% in taxes doesn't bother them much. But somehow they STILL get an ego boost by voting for the guy who claims he'll give a break to the working man (who they feel for, so much!), even when that's not the guy the majority of the working man votes for.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

44 (edited by Macbeth 24-Oct-2008 06:41:30)

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

so people who are not selfish are ignorant?
I do not live from help from my goverment.. i come along all fine with my income.
i still do support our welfare state.. [see if sarcasm is the realm of the insecure...] i am such an ignorant bastard.. god damn me for being not selfish and self centered.
sorry.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

RE: Healthcare

I think it is a very telling fact that upon its creation in the 1950's the National Health Service in the United Kingdom was heavily based not on the American private healthcare system but on the system as used by our good friends the National Socialists, who are now known as Germans.

I am curious to know if this American healthcare, this "best of the best", this "the very latest in medical science" is available to all Americans regardless of how much money they have?
Would it surprise you to know that in the UK the "best of the best" is available to all, even unemployable me? Hell, if I did not live in a country with a nationalised healthcare system I'd be in an asylum, dosed up on Valium and icecream, unable to even piss in a toilet let alone waste my life trying to find someone dumb enough to employ me.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

46 (edited by Justinian I 23-Oct-2008 10:16:57)

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Oh come on Kemp. I gave a working class woman my old car (best one she ever had! But junk to me.) and got laid. I demonstrated my sympathy for her poverty with a free car!

Nothing wrong with the upper middle class. Many of us worked our way to the top from very humble beginnings and are very conservative, but yes, a lot of them are nutty liberals too who have to participate in silly "save the world" projects.

Avo,

Go look it up on google. I don't bother to index my research.

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

no you demonstrated your sympathy for her body

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@Justinian & Co:

Mhm, so why is "saving the world" bad? Idk about ya'll but I kinda like the world...

EmuHatPacket!
Parrot> he isn't a pickle
Parrot> or in the army
Lexuzis> wtf?
Parrot> fing liar

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@ Schneip.

Dude...if the Employer is paying 6%, and you are paying 6%, that means the EMPLOYER is holding 6% of your wage to pay YOUR other 6%.

YOU pay 12%.  Its part of the Employer's payment to the Employee.   
You see, what people dont understand is, if they dont see it, they feel they dont pay for it. 

Schniep.....You pay 12% of your income to GOVT. Mandated Health care.
12% of 60K is 7200.....thats assuming a meager wage.   7200 can buy you a very good health coverage plan in the US.
Assuming you are Young and healthy.  Hell, most young and healthy in the US decide, the hell with that, I will keep my money.
7200 over 5 years is 36,000........thats a lot of money.  to wait for a catastrophic incident to befall you.

In the US, if you are young, and have some sort of disease or what not, you can go to the state system of health care.....just like you do now....and get covered....maybe a co-pay to bridge the difference.....but I will tell you this, if you make 60K in the US, single with say.....chronic asthma or chronic diabetes....you can get covered by the public system.

You all seem to think, people die on the streets of the US.

BTW, those "Mobile Homes" going into the poor neighborhoods to administer "Free" health care are more to spread awareness to the people that there is programs in place that they can rely on at the state or local level.
Its also geared more to the undocumented (the Illegals) and the unknowing or naive that listen to the media to much.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

50 (edited by Macbeth 24-Oct-2008 06:40:30)

Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

blackwing.. i said in my post that you will argue about my employer is holding back my money.. but that simply is not prooven..
who in the world would guarantee me that my employer simply does not keep the money for himself?
people here complain that work is too expensive for employers.. if it is.. why the heck would he give the money to ME if socialized healthcare would be abolished?

i totally understand that issue.

also.. with my contribution i do not only pay my personal healthcare but make it possible for every german to get a real good healthcare.
i do not pay for my personal healtcare.. i pay for everyones.
7200