1 Topic by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 22-Oct-2008 00:58:51)

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Topic: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

The day of the Socialist take over of America is near.

In 2000, w/Gore, the US Senate and House were Republican Majorities.

In 2004, There was a slim majority in the House, and an almost balanced Senate.

In 2006, the House and Senate majorities both went to the Democrats with the fallacy of "Ending" the war in Iraq and Eliminating the "Bush tax cuts for the rich."

Its a possibility the US Senate can go to a super majority of 60 Senators. (The minority can be voted out of a filibuster maneuver to prevent legislation from reaching a vote).
The House will not go back to Republican control.
Baraq Obama looks like he will be the next President of the US.


The pieces of the socialist agenda are in place.

1.  Obama has already said he will nationalize health Care, that will take a 7% mandatory tax to cover.
2.  "Joe the Plumber" types, small business owner that GROSS, not net, GROSS 250K a year will see a huge tax increase.
3.  Dividend income will be taxes at 30%.  So much for those on a fixed income.
4.  the "Death tax" will not be ended.  So, you pay taxes all your life, and then when you die, the Govt. will take 40% of your estate.  You cant pass it on to your next of kin.
5. Capital Gains are going to go up.

The Agenda of the left is to redistribute wealth.



For me, this is devastating.
My company GROSSES more than 250K a year. 
I employ 4 full timers, and 2 part timers......I also use a vast number of day labor when needed and sub contractors.

Where I am today, can be realized by any American from any walk of life.
I find this as an assault on the American way of life.

What is the ramifications of this ?

1. I will attempt to move as much of my business as I can underground (I will try to get paid in cash, and use more cash paid, day laborers in these areas).
2. I will NOT be seeking any new employees, that is a fact.  I will move my Part-timers into full time status and eliminate one paid position.
3. I will not be looking to invest in expanding my business, at least until I get the ramifications of this new govt.
4. I will end up working harder and more hands on on the job sites.
5. I am for sure out of the house flipping business unless a great opportunity falls in my lap.  I cannot accept the short-term capital gains that flipping will expose me to.  Capital gains are going to DOUBLE, even more for SHORT-TERM Cap Gains.
6. I will be hoping that SEP-IRAs (Self-employed) will still be accounted BEFORE Tax therefor shrinking my GROSS from the company.
So, I will be pumping in as much as I can, hopefully to get to retirement earlier.
7.  with less disposable income, I will NOT be spending as much as I was befor in my community.
8.  I like to vacation 2X a year, one on Presidents day week (kids are out of school), we usually cruise to the Carribian, and One in the summer (Grand Canyon, Smokey mountains, Virginia Beach, .....examples last few years.)
We will probably eliminate one of these vacations.


What do you all think these changes to my business and my lifestyle will do to the economy ?
Think of this as not only me....but of ALL the small business owners that will adjust by spending less, and investing less ?


How many other small business people, business owners that take a risk to start a business do you think are out there ?

How many Mom & Pop type corner store, country store business, gas stations, boutique stores, trucking companies, contracting companies of all sorts, real estate offices,....etc.
How many do you all think Gross 250K-500K ?
Companies like this FUEL the American Economy, yet........these types of business are now considered "Rich."

Companies like this will be taxed on their GROSS, the money they take in.....BEFORE Expenses.
Does anyone realize what a business owner may see in NET (the Profit) from a company that GROSSES 250K ?
20%  maybe 30% ??

SO, now a person that RISKS operating a business, that pumps in MUCH MORE than 40 hours a week, that sees maybe for their hard work,
20-30% of 250K or ... 50K - 75K a year......they should now get TAXED Heavily, because they are RICH ??


What it is, is an assault by the Socialists to dumb down the masses through their cronies in Academia and the Media.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Taxes on interest, dividends and capital gains are the most ridiculous taxes imaginable wherever they can be found worldwide.

That having been said, taxes in the U.S have to go up though, either that or your spending has to be cut drastically. I don't think it's so much redistribution of wealth than a budget which needs to be balanced (-$300-400B is not sustainable).

Other countries which ensure they have budget surpluses could and should remove those taxes though.

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  • Ps
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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

4.  the "Death tax" will not be ended.  So, you pay taxes all your life, and then when you die, the Govt. will take 40% of your estate.  You cant pass it on to your next of kin.
5. Capital Gains are going to go up.

The "Death Tax" actually only applies to the richest  of the rich, 1.3% of americans to be exact.


And I'm far far from liberal (might be farther right then conservatives) But most of america is moderate. Right smack in the middle. What's happening policy wise is The right side has gained power but the minute something bad happens we switch sides. We now see a decline in the right and an increase on the left. The left will have their turn for a little while but soon some event later in history will turn the tide and we'll try the right side again.

It's like the sine wave of ideology. And the wave will continue for as long as most Americans refuse to align themselves with one side or another, which means eternity (or until the US is dissolved)

Rehabilitated IC developer

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

im gonna laugh when i see Obama raise taxes on the middle class. the guy hasnt voted contrary to the Democratic party ever; he's as liberal as they come in the US. sure he says no tax increases to middle class, but so did Clinton.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@ A10
If you dont write a will, and "Gift" out your estate, the Govt. will take the Estate tax, then the rest will go to the next of kin.

I dont know where you got the 1.3% number from....but that is absurd.

Maybe, only 1.3% were so damn rich, they could not shield their entire estate, no matter how good of an estate attorney they had......

OR.....

More specifically, ...and probably more so..... people died w/o a will, and the Govt. devoured their estate.



As to the swing.....probably so.

After all, President (and unfortunately, enemy of the state) Jimmy Carter lead to Ronald Reagan, and the Great conservative movement.
Unfortunately, the Blue Bloods, the NE Rockefeller Liberal-Republicans RUINED the movement.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Clinton said he was sorry though.

Im sure OBAMA can do the same, and the Media-Elite will applaud him, just like they did Slick Willy Clinton.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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7 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 22-Oct-2008 02:48:56)

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

The death tax may apply to the richest 1% or whatever you make it out to be, but it crushes the lower rich (people with a few million $ of networth) and not the super rich (people with hundreds of millions to billions of $ of networth). The super rich can easily avoid the death tax, and eliminate competition among the lower rich. It's what annoys me about taxing, we can pillage the lower rich but not the super rich. Until the super rich are taxed in the same way in practice, I am going to consider it unfair. In other words, there is a big difference between the wealthiest .00001% (just to give a smaller number) and being just plainly in the wealthiest 1%, and there's something wrong with the estate tax when the wealthiest .00001% are able to avoid the estate tax when the majority of members in the wealthiest 1% are unable to.

But what BW does not consider is the taxable estate. Suppose your estate is worth $5 million and the estate tax floor is $3 million. You will then have $2 million of taxable networth, and with a 40% estate tax you will pay $800,000 in estate taxes. That would be less than 20% of your estate's value. At least Obama isn't going to say $600,000 is the tax floor as it used to be, he is putting it at $3.5 million, which is higher than it is at present. But my position will still be opposed to the estate tax until the heirs of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates etc do not have the means to avoid it thanks to their political and business connections. Until the super rich billionaires are also in practice subject to the estate tax, then NO TO ESTATE TAXES. With the conditions as they are, it's oppressive and helps to preserve the existing power structures.

Keep in mind

I have nothing against the the estate tax in principle, but I am opposed to it because of unavoidable practical consequences.

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8 Reply by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 22-Oct-2008 12:06:28)

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Obama is doing away with the shields though. 
He is "Stream lining" the system.

No business write offs, no "Gifting" the Estate (death) tax.

But .... thats it trivial as compared to the 250K business tax on Gross receipts.

Justinian, that will be you soon.  You are not far away from there....I can see that.  Maybe just one Presidential term away.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

BW,

lol true, and I'm not happy about it. But I see it as good in principle but in practice bad. Although, in principle it wouldn't apply to me (the tax floor would be higher) if I had any say about it.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

BW just plan on living forever...

But anyhow I heard today that Obama said Mccaind didn't have anything for folks scare for their "jobs, their homes and their lifestyle"

well damn! gubmint gotta keep up my lifestyle.  The new car every 3 years, the clothes and teh cable TV and the internet, the weekend on the lake, the steak dinners once a week

in the 1970s I wore homemade shirts and pants so mom and dad could save a few pennies

is anybody gonna settle for that "lifestyle" when Republocrats will print $1,000,000,000,000 to stave off recession for another year?

I'm gonna get me a new hobby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_cm_Luftminenwerfer_M_16

take her out to the Mojave and get some ballistic charts ready
when the Collapse comes I'll be taking out suburbs with thermite shells

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Yell,

Dude, you're psycho smile.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

woot a social-democracy, what's next communism, in the form of a peoples democracy? the states is circling the drain!

Kadaj

Death is not to be mourned
It's meant to be savored

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

No lie.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

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14 Reply by EmoHotPocket (edited by EmoHotPocket 22-Oct-2008 09:58:03)

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

God, I feel like I'm watching Fox News with all the out of context propaganda! GOBAMA! He's not a Socialist and even if he were, which country has been on a better track the last 8 years? The US, an unchecked fiscally liberal country that leaves all of it's problems to the next president because they refuse to raise any taxes on anyone to appease the voter base, meanwhile, spending away money we don't have. Or a country like Germany, which I visited this summer and was impressed with economically, which until the recent global market collapse, was showing an unrelenting benefit in self-sustainability and allowed hard working poor people basic rights like a decent education and free/practically free health care. I'm by no means a socialist, but all I have to say is people view this word like it's saying HITLER, STALIN, BIN LADEN, BOMB, KILL, JIHAD, COMMUNIST, MUSLIM, MUSLIM, MUSLIM!!!!  When in fact, there are Socialist democracies like Germany, and Capitalist dictatorships like China. I think we're on the track to becoming China or if the Neo-Cons keep at it, 1939 Germany, except without the man power and productivity. Also, it's noteworthy to point out that Obama allows tax incentives for any business that creates jobs in America rather than outsourcing them, so BW, you'd likely be able hire new people and get a tax break anyway. As for "Joe the Plumber..." he is and always has been a fable. His real name is Samuel J Wurzelbacher, he is a registered Republican and not an Independent, he is an alleged wife beater, he doesn't own a plumbing license, he owes back taxes, and to top it all off he is not-so-distantly related to one of the key members of the Keating Five scandal of the 80's. The guy is a real winner, and frankly if we're taxing bastards like him rather than my girlfriend who works two part time jobs and still can't afford health insurance, then so be it.

EmuHatPacket!
Parrot> he isn't a pickle
Parrot> or in the army
Lexuzis> wtf?
Parrot> fing liar

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

OP: That is not "euro socialism" that is "stupid greedy american socialism" which is socialism in name only, kind of like with the USSR.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

"Taxes on interest, dividends and capital gains are the most ridiculous taxes imaginable wherever they can be found worldwide."

How are they?
Every working person has to pay an income tax.
what about those who had been lucky.. got a bunch of money and now get their income from intrest, dividends and such. Taxfree life for them?
Its an income for them too so it has to be taxed within the income tax.. or an extra tax is needed.

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  • Noir
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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

BW trade offs, trade offs.

You will have implications on your business, and yes for the economy as a whole its negative, on the first glance. But putting money to better work in healthcare for instance is not necisarily spending, its investing. Giving more people education is not necisarily spending, its investing.

Yes you may have to pay more taxes (i havent looked into the different taxation plans of the candidates tho) but you will also have to pay less when it comes to health insurance, college money for your kids etc.

Its also a tradeoff between funding military and warfare or funding nationlized healthcare.

You see only the negative sides (i know you dont, but that is how you depict it in this forum wink). Its easy to make a similar post for McCain, just the other way around.

"OMG he wants to take away our benefits and he wants us to pay for oversees wars to Cheney and Halliburton can increase their revenues.."


Like you said yourself, The Agenda of the left is to redistribute wealth. To share the wealth more evenly among society might be for the greater good. Yes you as a wealthy businessman (i admire all ppl who start their own business, dont get me wrong i wanna do it myself) may be worse off in total, but there will be children and sick ppl elsewhere in your country being grateful for the education or healthcare youve helped given them. Im not saying its the perfect system, but its not the horror you make it out to be.  I agree socialism is not the answer, i think in Norway where i live that we should have less welfare, but the US has a LONG way to go before it becomes Norway, and i think the most functional form of society is found somewhere betweeen our two models.

LORD HELP OREGON

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

First off......let me say.....Thanks Noir & Justinian.  Somewhat Schniep as well for actually posting a reasonable response.
the rest of you are newbs and boneheads.

Noir....Im not wealthy dude.  I am comfortable, My kids will have a good college education.
We have health care in my family, because my wife works in the Board of Education.  Her job benefits cover us all.
I have saved for my kids college through the many programs out there. 
ALSO, my kids work hard, and will probably earn scholarships and will have colleges offering them good packages because of what they will bring to the school.

I dont NEED a Powerful Central Govt. to run my life.

I could HONESTLY say, Im a little pissed off, and angry that what I have worked my entire life,
Served my country honorably and with distinction,  worked my ass off,  have been a model, law-abiding citizen, put myself through college and built a business......ANYONE can do this.

Why do I have to provide for those who have no ambition or drive or .. BALLS ... and GUMPTION to do what I have done.......
What my Father instilled in me.......
What I teach my children......

NOTHING....nothing comes easy in life. 
YOU have to make a mark on world, and do for yourself.....because you can, in this country.

NOW....I have a US Govt. that will put the shackles on people like me.  People who want to start a small business, and try to make a home based or local business work for them......it will be very hard for us.

I already have the NEW YORK state govt. HAMMERING me with fees and taxes to do work.....no the FEDERAL GOVT ?


I dont "Outsource"  jobs......Jesus.....


BTW....Outsource jobs... should be removed from US political talk.....its an absurd, stupid statement.  Liberals should not be FORCING manufacturing out of the US with there STUPID tax laws.

Talk about OUT SOURCING....what do you think the OBAMA/Leftist Legislature will do to American Business ?
Create it ??

Every dollar that goes to the Govt. is a COMPLETE Waste.
If I want to invest in my Family, I would rather do that, then pass it on to the Govt to administer it to me.

That is what you all are trying to say is GOOD for the US.

I think GERMANY and FRANCE and the UK and CANADA are all sorry states.... your health care sucks, your dental care sucks.....compared to the US.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

there we have it again.
you say our healthcare sucks...
our healthcare is more then sufficient i would say.. and still better then in 90% of the rest of the world.
do we NEED to have the best? i do not think so. as long it is sufficient and available for everyone.
here comes in that point of view again.

I totally trust my german healthcare.. i get all the treatments i need in an acceptable ammount of time.

from your point of view.. obviously only the BEST OF THE BEST has legislation to be there at all.

Maybe your super clinics are better then our super clinics.. so? ours are still good enough to make the life expection for germans higher then it is for americans. not to mention that you probablly have no idea about our healthcare. I remember that movie flint posted where one american tried to make a cure for brain cancer and in that way discovered how to make water be a fuel.. dunno if any of you remembers.
anyways.. what he was trying to do... is available here for a couple of years. years before that guy had the idea to burn away the tumors.

i wonder if any american knows it.. or if you all believe... wow what an excellent idea to burn it away... only americans can make it.
when i mentioned that that discovery was made in germany years ago.. no one felt like replying.

i dont know if i can ask you here how much you pay each month for healthcare insurance for your whole family.
and then i

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

BW already said they get healthcare from his wife's job, its free for them.

also, drink a coffee with the boss?! i thought germans didnt consume any liquid other then beer!

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

what would cost a private healthcare insurance for whole family then?
in comparisson to socialized healthcare?

yeah right avo.. in real it was a beer with coffee flavour;)

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  • Golk
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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Just a short answer for now.

As an (ex)business holder, I understand the fear and, even more, the rage at having spent so much time and effort to see the government take its share and give it to "less motivated people".

Now, I would point out a few things:
- Since you're successful, you mean business. So you will not make many adjustments based on taxes but on economic situation
- The economic situation could go better with this new age. We just don't know. We saw where it went with a right direction, let's give it a try on the left (not talking of big collateral damage like supreme court).

Also, if there is any real success of the euro-socialist way: the ones that are in a predicament don't stop spending, thanks to state help. As much as it defies understanding to help people that somehow don't deserve it, the fact that they keep on spending whatever the situation (out of work, health problem, etc) is leveling the importance of crisis there.

With 4-6 employees + yourself, you're obviously bigger than, say a bakery, and way over the 250k barrier. Still, if the american economy starts growing strongly again, I'm sure that whatever you do, Btb or Btc, you will expand beyond the loss from taxes.

The question obviously is, can this ticket + godly power in Senate/Congress actually make a turn and re-boot the american economy, if only its spirit? I don't know, and we will probably have to wait and see.

Still, somehow, I believe the american market is the best suited at the moment to find asomehow "just" system between all-out capitalism and social decency, which could create an ideal ground again for its economy.

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  • Ouro
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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

@BW

i agree with working hard and getting what you earn, that much is true, too many people are lazy and that's one of the main problems we have here.  red, blue, left, right, it doesn't matter, everyone's lazy and wants everything quick and easy without ever doing anything for it, that just doesn't work.  this outsourcing problems is a direct result of that.  companies aren't beating a hasty retreat because of tax laws and blood thirsty liberals coming after them, they're leaving because A) they're greedy and will do anything to turn  that quick profit and B) because lazy people want their junk cheaper and cheaper, and since american workers will certainly not work for pennies a day, that job goes to a country that's starving and will accept that kind of wage.  Apathetic lazy people feed right into the hands of big greedy businessmen who will do anything to put more money in their own, as well as their shareholders, pockets.  if we want to keep jobs in america we need to wise up.  no more apathy, no more laziness, sometimes you just cannot have everything you want, sometimes you have to make do with a little less if you want to see some benefits in the long run. and that's the bottom line.


too bad it'll never happen.

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

Until the details of any "gross receipts tax" are published its almost impossible to say who will be winners or losers.

The tax is intended to replace lots of other taxes, e.g corporation tax, sales tax and others.

My understanding is that most small businesses will not be affected much but very large tax avoiders might be.

but without precise details its impossible to know for sure.

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Re: The Eve of Euro-Socialism is upon America

I can see the point of redistributing wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and allow greater social mobility, but in practice it ends up taking away from the middle class and lower rich. It does nothing to the super rich class who are able to influence the political power structure. Why would they harm themselves?

x is right that some social programs are intended as investments rather than hand outs. However, in the US increasing money for education or health care would actually solve nothing. We spend more $ per student than anywhere else in the world. The problem is not a lack of funding, but an inefficient system that needs dramatic reform. When tax dollars and tuition are supporting college sports team who can't pay for themselves and huge football stadiums, and high schools have huge gyms and swimming pools, you know something is just messed up. If we did something about our powerful teacher's unions and turned our schools in to facilities of education rather than entertainment, it would be a lot less expensive.

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