Re: The sobering reality is...

I am blatently not reading half these posts because they seem to revolve around a theme...

Yes intellect needs to become a higher power within the greater human empire, however bio-engineering is not the way. Education and the realisation that through greater education of the masses a greater state of living can be achieved. We already have the abilitiy to step up, however there is a mental block in the way, something that makes everyone think of themselves first, and that is greed.

Don't get me wrong, greed is good, but it needs to be tempered and shaped into the tools we need to grow. Greed to advance the entire human race, not just your very singular subset.

It is about leading our personal worlds not through the next 3-5 years, but the next 10-20, or 50 or more... thinking in terms of lifetimes, of multiple generations...

Efficiency, innovation, advancement.... evolution of the mind via an educated mass...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: The sobering reality is...

> avogadro wrote:

> > Inviltrist wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> you constantly contradict yourself, its full of contradiction. your philosophy is bogus.



Really?



Give me an example of one political or social philosophy that has absolutely no contradictions.  wink


ok, then i'll give you a free tip.

you look like a moron when you contradict yourself in an argument even 1 time, let alone the dozens of times you have in this thread.

..................................................................................................................


Well I don't do free trips.


Name a contradiction.   It's very likely not a contradiction,  you are just merely too ignorant to understand it wink



The only reasonable objection you have raised about my points are the moral issues with it.



I don't believe in morals.


What's good?  whatever works for me.   Evil?  Anything that opposes my well-being.




Selfishness, to the very core.



I myself would need to be upgraded for my idea's to work.



as would almost every living person.




... but for the world I live in now I need to be selfish.  as do all of you.   It's really the only way to progress in this society.


Hopefully one day,  our descendants will be far more altruistic.



I'm sure this entire post comes off as a contradiction to you.  Understandable, but in essence it is no contradiction.   Just an acceptance of reality, and a hope that someday our descendants will be more evolved than ourselves.






... and don't worry,   whenever I actually am bored enough to gather a collection of all the contradictions you've said by sampling maybe 10 or 15 of your posts from various threads, maybe you will realize that everyone makes contradiction.   Life itself is filled with a plethora of contradictions.   Existence itself is one big contradiction.



Then again,   you really aren't worth the 20 minutes it would take.   Who knows though,  maybe if you get annoying enough wink




You don't annoy me now though.  I kinda find you adorable.   I'm assuming you are in high school?

He who stands atop the highest pyramid of skulls can see the furthest

78 (edited by Gwynedd 10-Oct-2008 08:17:12)

Re: The sobering reality is...

> avogadro wrote:

> you do understand that what you are talking about doing,  you are talking about brainwashing all humans and then you want to see how long the brainwashed humans can last as a whole, and if its some long period of time, you'll call it a success and the human race will be a success because they lasted a certain period of time?

lol, good luck finding people to support such a thing; you might want to try N Korea...


.........................................................................................................................



Life to me is a game.    One big game without a reset button.    Once you die,  game over.    I'm sure most of us can agree that an afterlife isn't very likely.




Taking a look at nature,  we are all biological machines.   The only true goal or meaning is to see that our dna spreads and prospers.   That is the goal of the game.   I play games to win.



if I lose?   [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] it.   I'll be too dead to care.



While I'm alive though,  I shall try to play the game to the best of my ability,  and if I can contribute to how my descendants will play the game in the future,  hell if I can in any way help alter the rules of the game,  my consciousness will be in oblivion, but my essence will live on through my dna.





It's all just a meaningless game.  Then again,  so is Imperialconflict.      We all play or have played the game.  So to say I contradict myself,  I think you also need to take a look in the mirror.



So, since I'm sure you've made contradictions in your life at one point or another, does that make you a "moron" as well?

He who stands atop the highest pyramid of skulls can see the furthest

Re: The sobering reality is...

> You_Fool wrote:

> I am blatently not reading half these posts because they seem to revolve around a theme...

Yes intellect needs to become a higher power within the greater human empire, however bio-engineering is not the way. Education and the realisation that through greater education of the masses a greater state of living can be achieved. We already have the abilitiy to step up, however there is a mental block in the way, something that makes everyone think of themselves first, and that is greed.

Don't get me wrong, greed is good, but it needs to be tempered and shaped into the tools we need to grow. Greed to advance the entire human race, not just your very singular subset.

It is about leading our personal worlds not through the next 3-5 years, but the next 10-20, or 50 or more... thinking in terms of lifetimes, of multiple generations...

Efficiency, innovation, advancement.... evolution of the mind via an educated mass...
.........................................................................................................................



Then it seems we agree on everything,  aside for bio-engineering.



I think you just have more faith in the human being than I do.



Maybe mankind will all come together and our over-all intellect will improve with each passing generation.



... but I highly doubt it.      Our society has put natural selection on pause.  It tends to be that uneducated people breed far more offspring than those with a higher intelligence.



Not saying that you need a college degree to be intelligent or even educated.   That's far from the truth. There are many idiots with college degrees.  Hell,  at my campus (Michigan State University),  a look at the typical frat party around here really makes you cynical about the future leaders of society haha.




One of the biggest problems to our progress is religious extremism.   In the united states, it's evangelical/fundamental christianity.    Children born into the over-sized cult that is christian fundamentalism are socially conditioned from birth to be, how shall I put it?  backwards thinking idiots.

He who stands atop the highest pyramid of skulls can see the furthest

Re: The sobering reality is...

"
I don't believe in morals.


What's good?  whatever works for me.   Evil?  Anything that opposes my well-being."

theres a contradiction smile but finally we see your morals. smile

"
... and don't worry,   whenever I actually am bored enough to gather a collection of all the contradictions you've said by sampling maybe 10 or 15 of your posts from various threads, maybe you will realize that everyone makes contradiction.   Life itself is filled with a plethora of contradictions.   Existence itself is one big contradiction."

contradicting yourself while talking to many different people in different discussions is much different then pushing a single idea in a single discussion and constantly contradicting yourself.

"So, since I'm sure you've made contradictions in your life at one point or another, does that make you a "moron" as well?"

first of all, i said it made you SEEM like a moron, not necessarily that you are one. sure, occasionally i make mistakes like all humans do, but i never have contradicted myself to the degree you have. and i'm sure theres posters in these forums that consider me a moron.

"You don't annoy me now though.  I kinda find you adorable.   I'm assuming you are in high school?"

nope, graduated highschool, graduated from college, have a job. but the ladies do usually consider me adorable smile

81 (edited by Gwynedd 10-Oct-2008 08:15:38)

Re: The sobering reality is...

> Inviltrist wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> you do understand that what you are talking about doing,  you are talking about brainwashing all humans and then you want to see how long the brainwashed humans can last as a whole, and if its some long period of time, you'll call it a success and the human race will be a success because they lasted a certain period of time?

lol, good luck finding people to support such a thing; you might want to try N Korea...


.........................................................................................................................



Life to me is a game.    One big game without a reset button.    Once you die,  game over.    I'm sure most of us can agree that an afterlife isn't very likely.




Taking a look at nature,  we are all biological machines.   The only true goal or meaning is to see that our dna spreads and prospers.   That is the goal of the game.   I play games to win.



if I lose?   [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] it.   I'll be too dead to care.



While I'm alive though,  I shall try to play the game to the best of my ability,  and if I can contribute to how my descendants will play the game in the future,  hell if I can in any way help alter the rules of the game,  my consciousness will be in oblivion, but my essence will live on through my dna.





It's all just a meaningless game.  Then again,  so is Imperialconflict.      We all play or have played the game.  So to say I contradict myself,  I think you also need to take a look in the mirror.



So, since I'm sure you've made contradictions in your life at one point or another, does that make you a "moron" as well?









dude, you're saying you're doing this just to know the criticisms, and what you quoted in here, is what your idea is going to appear like to many people. and you telling them that life is a game, and you dont give a [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] about morals isnt going to convince your critics....

82 (edited by Gwynedd 10-Oct-2008 08:17:08)

Re: The sobering reality is...

I don't care about convincing you of anything.



You are beyond help, I'm afraid wink



I was just curious to see what the criticisms were.



I did just that.


I'm not trying to start a [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] revolution on an online game forum haha.

He who stands atop the highest pyramid of skulls can see the furthest

83 (edited by avogadro 10-Oct-2008 03:36:42)

Re: The sobering reality is...

"I don't care about convincing you of anything."

i think thats you admitting defeat smile


well, earlier you said

" I just honestly wanted intelligent criticism of my idea's and philosophy so that as my career progresses, I can learn from it, and learn to disarm such criticisms before they can even be raised."

and your only response to any criticism was that you dont have morals and that you only care about whats good for yourself.... so i guess that wasnt your point in posting here. then why did you post here? hmmmm, im guessing to get attention.

Re: The sobering reality is...

yo yo yo. Is it about convincing anyone? This thread has gotten too long, haha.

I think I have a couple of things to add. I hold back because I did not want to convince anyone of anything.


Here is my story: I have actually thought about how the changing 'civilization' will affect the human race and a few books and groups have came up on that matter.


What Inviltrist is talking about is some bioengineering stuff. Well, I view it with bioengineering with suspicion, as a general rule. I think their analysis levels are too rudimentary, there is a lot more for them to do. So, I would rather take the talk about the bioengineering components later on. Bear with me for a moment.


First, I want to talk about science fiction. About old science fiction. Asimov's books have covered a lot of different ideas that span our society. He introduced some ideas to the general public. Two of the most famous ideas were of the 'thinking robot,' some of which might have *biological part.* And there is the Foundation series. I think this thread has touched both of the ideas within those series of books.


The basic idea behind the Foundation series is a math model of how societies evolve. It is the idea that Asimov took, played around with it, and wrote some good books. But let's leave the science fiction aside. Here we talk on topics such as what is the best society. We use some ideas that we have on how societies operate and play with them in our minds. We simply 'model' on how our societies will change in time. Sometimes it works, but if the model does not work out in practice - well, failure is an option that some groups have to go through.

Everything else aside, I just wanted to bring this point out - we can actually *model* the societies we live in, in order to access how are things going to work out. And then this model has to have a socialogical component and be put in practice. I don't want to dwelve on it now, but I might add a few notes about it.


The thread is actually going back and forth between how a society will (or should?) behave and that of the individual. That is what we call 'success' in the society and 'successful' society. Remember this. We assign what is good and what is not good. Thus, we assign options that are 'failing.'



I am fairly abstract, so here is one example. A class arguing whether European-style democratic socialism or American-style capitalism works better. But the class forget to decide on how to measure 'better.' Next thing you know, since people did not agree on this basic definition, everyone is querreling with each other. Not understanding what is the point of the other person. Well, some of them might refer to success as 'better industrial average output' and some might refer to it as 'better average social health.' Or whatever. If you are like me, you'd call success 'better beer.' I am still searching for the place with the best beer, I will have to do some more travelling big_smile

Time to move from the society to the individual, though.

The singularity. That is what Invilstrist started the thread about. I was suprised that I did not see this term. As computer science evolved, people asked themselves what is going to happen to the human. The human as both as society of humankind, and the individual human. This includes the mechanics of cognition and emotion. The bioengineering is just one component of this bigger picture.


The technology heritage is constantly being enlarged. We like technology - unless you are a hermit and don't user internet - but then you would not be playing IC. We are adaptive and learned to use tools for our good, and then we learned how to invent better and better tools. Some of these tools might soon be part of us. Implants in the brain, or gene selection. You name it. Somebody is probably working on enlarging our ensabmble of tools.


The question becomes - what do we do with all this technology that will soon be available? Or do we really want it?


It is been interesting to see your reactions. I can't give the answer to that question.


But I can drink a beer smile still...

I am all-in on electrics.

Re: The sobering reality is...

i'll save you from trying one beer. Sam Adams Light is a horrible, horrible beer as i learned today. i thought hmmm, other Sam Adams beers are pretty good, but sometimes im in the mood for a light; no, do not try it! it is horrible!

Re: The sobering reality is...

except he wasnt willing to debate on how to define "better" he basically said its whats best for him or his offspring and thats it; but no one other then him or his offspring would be able to agree with him.

Re: The sobering reality is...

Ok, there is a lot to talk about... my posts are always long-winded. The last one is more of an introduction to be topic. I hope I did not scare anyone.


Some pointers: when you think about a 'perfect' society... why do you imagine only one society? Why not have multiple societies that learn from each other.


A 'failing' society - sorry, I can hardly imagine that. Our current state of societal system came about after a long period of evolution. It might change and we will adapt. We might do something wrong - such as Palin becoming a president - but, well, hmmm, that would not be on the level of 'failing' just yet. I define it as simply 'wrong.'


@Inviltrist: you actually left me confused as to exactly what you mean, at multiple points in your threads. For example, I did think that you were going after all emotions. I was not sure if you meant all people or part of the population. And you can always use the 'aspirin' example to control emotions. Since it can actually alleviate the pain and stop headache, it is actually an 'emotion'-control pill.


Also, if you ever become a PhD - one of hte differences that I have noticed between students and phD is that the phD will doubt more, while the student will try to do the assignment at once. When you start doubting more, then you would be closer to solving these problems.



PS. omg, my threads are really long... but I did have a few things to say sad

I am all-in on electrics.

88 (edited by avogadro 10-Oct-2008 04:46:16)

Re: The sobering reality is...

your posts are short, stop bitching about your own posts!

Re: The sobering reality is...

Seriously, Invil's quadruple spacing between sentences is annoying... -.-

Anyways, I don't understand why intellect needs to rule society or drive the human race.  I find intellect too rational to be any good to society.  Let's think about it: A computer is programmed to do exactly what you tell it to do.  It calculates what is given and determines the output.  Now, with your bio-engineering example, you are programming a human being to do exactly what you want.  Humans, without the emotion or instinct that actually allowed us to thrive, would just be the computer you're sitting at right now.  When all you rely on are numbers, when all you rely on is fact, then all you are is the Architect in the Matrix - boring, uneventful, too rational.

Re: The sobering reality is...

@avogadro smile I did not read most of your debate with Invil, cause they got too confusing. And I did not read your posts before posting my second post - I agree about the Light Beers smile


yes, Invil did not support his ideas and left me wondering what is it he's talking about. He might make a mistake if he goes too deeply into those ideas. My post was not aimed at you though, but at whoever reads the thread.

I am all-in on electrics.

Re: The sobering reality is...

im thinking Ireland; i think i can live on Guinness.

Re: The sobering reality is...

@Sir: well, yes, a computer is boring and uneventful. This will actually not allow me to drink beer with the same happiness as before.

But someone might add: what if we add the two together? A cyborg so-to-say? Or leave some computers to decide some actions for us? For example, you can have a computer go through military action plans and stop plans that are not sound.

I think the decision is to drink the most beer we can, before the world gets turned upside-down... big_smile

I am all-in on electrics.

93 (edited by avogadro 10-Oct-2008 05:12:38)

Re: The sobering reality is...

making beer is so much work.... i made my own beer once, sure it tasted pretty good, but just so much work. and my entire house smelled awful for like a week after i finished the cooking part of the process. i have a kit for another batch, but cant bring myself to brew it sad

Re: The sobering reality is...

@avogadro - I started a 'beer' thread is in the general forum big_smile

@sir - we make the assumption that we have to experience happiness for us to thrive. My previous post conveys that meaning as well.

I am all-in on electrics.

Re: The sobering reality is...

you gotta think... if everyone had a nice cold beer in their hand, the world would be a better place...

96 (edited by avogadro 10-Oct-2008 05:16:03)

Re: The sobering reality is...

@Smoif, Inviltrist was just trolling, we mind as well just derail the thread.

Re: The sobering reality is...

@avo: Really? I have a kit as well, I am doing it with a friend of mine from college. Im not sure about any smells though... well, we ventilate the place we have it in.

I am all-in on electrics.

Re: The sobering reality is...

and what is better than talk about beer? You tried the Belgium-styles at 8-9%?

I am all-in on electrics.

99 (edited by avogadro 10-Oct-2008 05:23:21)

Re: The sobering reality is...

at 8-9%? i dont know, i tried quite a few Belgian beers though, because those are basically the most widely available foreign beers here.

oh, just thought of my favorite. Samual Smith Old Brewery Pale Ale.  i think its called, it was great.

Re: The sobering reality is...

I totally agree about your ideas about beer.

I think we have to put beer in the hands of every single man, woman and child.

I think as part of my 'beer party,' I will try to introduce beer-related subjects to schools. The subjects of math, chem, physics, English can be changed to:

Mathamatics of Brewing. Applied problems, taken from Sam Adams
Chemisty. Final test - brew your beer. 
Physics of beer flow. Bubbles. (this one is hard)
English literature. Studiyng novels about Absinthe.

I am all-in on electrics.