"That until the human animal is forced to evolve to a point where intellect over rules instincts(Emotions fall under the category of instincts IMO), any economic or political philosophies mankind dreams up with will forever be destined for failure."

You want a society of instinctless, emotionless, citizens design fully functional AI, otherwise I'm afraid you're out of luck.  Not arguing with your assertion that instinct and emotion are the leading cause of our fallibility, but to say Humanity would be a better species if it weren't for our instincts is a lot like saying a Duck would make an excellent Fish if it weren't for the fact it was a Duck.

Ok, I'll bite.  so let's say we could the question is should we?  Do you really belive that a world without emotion is better than what we currently have?  I'd pose you a question were you your saddest when you were at your poorest?  Or happiest when you were richest?  "Success" is more than simply prosperity.  So outside of pointing out that the economy works because of greed, which is the irrational want for more than we need, even if your claim that removing emotion would lead to a "better" society would it even be worth doing?

> Question wrote:

> Ok, I'll bite.  so let's say we could the question is should we?  Do you really belive that a world without emotion is better than what we currently have?  I'd pose you a question were you your saddest when you were at your poorest?  Or happiest when you were richest?  "Success" is more than simply prosperity.  So outside of pointing out that the economy works because of greed, which is the irrational want for more than we need, even if your claim that removing emotion would lead to a "better" society would it even be worth doing?

Wealth is in the eye of the beholder.   Money doesn't make me happy.  Progress does.  The instinctual desire for not only the survival of the species I belong to, but for it's evolution.   I never said all instincts or emotions should be done away with,  I'm merely stating they need to be upgraded.   So long as instinct and emotion over-rule intellect, that double edge sword will be driven straight through mankinds heart.

Human nature, as it stands today, will lead to the extinction of the race.   The only way we have a chance to not only survive but also thrive is if we take control of our own evolution.

No philosophy or political theory will ever work so long as the foundation it stands on is rotten.

Like I said...

We either let intellect control instinct, or we let our animal instincts lead us into extinction.

Sadly,  the only thing that will make the general population realize this is if some violent catalyst smashes the human race in the face.

We have the ability to become the gods we've always invented.

I think mankind will only devolve

kinda like in the movie Idiocracy

No way will we get the ideal society now that people in power need to keep people uninformed and in misinformed to cause fear and desperation, so that they'll conform to whatever politicians want them to conform to.

@invil: wb to the forum, agree fully to what you're saying here

Nice book on the topic: "Island" by Aldous Huxley

> avogadro wrote:

> "there can not be a purely logical reason to exist, there will be no point of reproduction and humans will become extinct; no reason to overcome struggle. stealing from Equilibrium, the reason to live is to feel."

No point in reproduction? What in the hell are you talking about?  No reason to overcome struggle?  How are you concluding this?  Your logic is very sloppy here.

The reason to live is to feel?  No.  Thinking like that is the very thing that dooms mankind.

...and when did I ever say all feeling should stop?  No.  I'm merely saying we modify our instincts and "feelings" to better suit the environment that our success has created, and to disable those instincts/emotions that are counter-productive to the progress of our species.

Both V.Kemp and Inviltrist reappear within a similar time frame.

Therefore they are the same person.

> Justinian I wrote:

> Both V.Kemp and Inviltrist reappear within a similar time frame.

Therefore they are the same person.

You're kidding,  right?

"Why can't intellect assign value for humans?  Intellect fueled by the instinct of survival and advancement of our species."

Intellect and by that I mean cold rational logic, would ultimately rule that the continued survival and advancement of our species is undesirable.  Three emotions that cannot be eliminated without resulting in the complete collapse of modern civilization are; greed, fear, and envy.  Greed fuels the economy, fear is the basis of unity, and envy is the driving force of ambition.  These three emotions are ultimately what lead us to turn on each other as a species so it becomes clear from a purely intellectual perspective that if our species continues to survive and advance the consequences of our inevitable attacks on one another will become more and more drastic until ultimately we destroy the entire planet.  Therefore the least of the potential evils is that we destroy ourselves now while there's still a chance the planet will survive the purge.

"The intelligent thing to do is use technology/genetic engineering, ect to tweak those emotions so they no longer are a double edged sword."

That's ultimately the problem.  Humanity can't exist in it's current environment without those emotions and we can't change the environment as long as those emotions exist.

There is nothing wrong with our instincts or emotions. We can use our intellect to design ways to fit our instincts. For example, capitalism. Yes capitalism is not perfect but can anyone explain to me why we would be better off with no instincts? Just with intellect what will we do with it?

We will have no desire to have more money than the next person therefore capitalism won't work. We will have no instinct to help out other humans so charities wont exist. I really want to understand how intellect alone can help us move forward? It might actually lead to our doom.

I hate academia, but reading inviltrist's drool makes me wish he had to support half of the statements he makes--because he makes them up.

You're not the first person to forsee mankind's demise in the next 10-100-1,000,-10,000-100,000-10^999999999 years.

That you don't like capitalism does not ensure us of your intellect that you obviously think so highly of. That you're TERRIFIED of the prospect of taking care of yourself just suggests you have the intellect and competence of a child.

There is an inherent instinct in humanity to evolve? Didn't see that one coming.

"Modern Civilization as it stands today is counter-productive.  Society, and the human animal itself needs to be modified at the structural level."

Somebody's depressed and plagued by feelings of inferiority. You should probably talk to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. I'd go with the psychologist first because a psychiatrist is going to diagnose and drug the hell out of you real fast and you won't have the prospects to actually cure yourself in that state.

"The intelligent thing to do is use technology/genetic engineering, ect to tweak those emotions so they no longer are a double edged sword."

You don't get the irony of this statement? It's okay. It's because you're one of the lesser-beings that you despise so much. Our intelligence is ALREADY capable of "tweaking" emotions. We're ALREADY capable of acting rationally in the face of emotions and even severe stress and emotional distress.

The fact that YOU struggle with this is suggested by the fact that you started a thread to discuss how imperative it is that we genetic engineer ourselves to survive... That's not a quack theory of a child or lunatic. Nooooo...

> V.Kemp wrote:

> I hate academia, but reading inviltrist's drool makes me wish he had to support half of the statements he makes--because he makes them up.

You're not the first person to forsee mankind's demise in the next 10-100-1,000,-10,000-100,000-10^999999999 years.

That you don't like capitalism does not ensure us of your intellect that you obviously think so highly of. That you're TERRIFIED of the prospect of taking care of yourself just suggests you have the intellect and competence of a child.

There is an inherent instinct in humanity to evolve? Didn't see that one coming.

"Modern Civilization as it stands today is counter-productive.  Society, and the human animal itself needs to be modified at the structural level."

Somebody's depressed and plagued by feelings of inferiority. You should probably talk to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. I'd go with the psychologist first because a psychiatrist is going to diagnose and drug the hell out of you real fast and you won't have the prospects to actually cure yourself in that state.

"The intelligent thing to do is use technology/genetic engineering, ect to tweak those emotions so they no longer are a double edged sword."

You don't get the irony of this statement? It's okay. It's because you're one of the lesser-beings that you despise so much. Our intelligence is ALREADY capable of "tweaking" emotions. We're ALREADY capable of acting rationally in the face of emotions and even severe stress and emotional distress.

The fact that YOU struggle with this is suggested by the fact that you started a thread to discuss how imperative it is that we genetic engineer ourselves to survive... That's not a quack theory of a child or lunatic. Nooooo..."

....................................................................................................................

See!  that's the kind of reply I like!  Of course I'm not the first person to forsee the doom of our species, nor will I be the last.   It's inevitable, I'm merely stating the actions we need to take if we are to ever actually stand a chance at survival.

I never stated that it will happen in a decade, a thousand years, ect.  Merely saying that if society is allowed to continue the route it's going in...  extinction is the only option.

You need to stop the assumptions, and quit making Freudian psychological projections that simply do not apply.

Inferiority? haha.   I'm quite confident in myself AND my intellect.  You already know this.   You're just trying to avoid the substance of the post and attack me personally in attempt to discredit the points I bring up.

Don't get the idea that I think I'm some super evolved genius elitist.  No.   I'm just somebody that doesn't try and cover up an ugly reality.   Am I intelligent?  Yes.   Am I the most intelligent person alive today?  Absolutely not.     Nobody who reads and posts in these lame forums could ever possibly achieve that title

I'm scared of taking care of myself?  Where do you get this from?  I'm perfectly capable and happy of living my own life and making my own living.  Maybe you shouldn't assume so much?

I started this thread for the sole purpose of discussion.   Of debating.   Do I think humanity will ever achieve the state that I've suggested?  Maybe, but most likely not.

Your response shows exactly what you are.   Someone incapable of contributing to theoretical and philosophical discussions with anything other than rather dull and cliche personal attacks.

Oh, and did I ever say "No human being can use their intellect to act rationally and make smart decisions in times of great stress or emotions".

No.   You are filled with logical fallacies,  aren't ya kemp?   

Sure,  some people can allow their intellect to over rule their emotions.   For the majority of people?  You gotta be kidding me.   Sure,  maybe in one circumstance they are capable,  yet given another event,  they break down completely.

V.Kemp,  I'm sure your emotions have gotten the best of you at one point or another in your life.   If you deny that,  maybe you're the one who needs to see a psychologist?  Seems like you have a lot of frustration built up in there.   

Mankinds biggest problems is that we love to seperate ourselves into different groups, instead of realizing that every human being is of one species.    So long as trivial divisions like religion, nationality, skin color, ect are allowed to exist, the human race doesn't have a chance in hell.

That type of thinking is so ingrained into humanity, myself included,  that the only way we can fix it is by lots of social conditioning, and yes...  even genetic engineering.

So to sum things up,  don't make assumptions.  You just make yourself look like a jackass