Re: Big Bang !

Firstly, no particle with rest mass can achieve the speed of light, so protons and electrons do not travel at the speed of light, although with enough energy they can get very close. Electrons may travel at any speed at all (below c) it just depends on their energy.

Particle collisions will occur in the sun although I have no idea what the comparison of collision energies between solar particle collisions and the LHC and I can't be bothered looking it up, but it would not surprise me if LHC collision energies were actually a lot higher than those in the sun. But I have just made that up.

Last summer I was awarded a first class honours degree in physics and I have never heard anything about tiny black holes being created in the sun. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the claim that it is "simple science" is hard to believe and I suspect this may have been pulled out of your arse.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Big Bang !

there is a big bang





in my pants!

Break it Down!

28 (edited by TheYell 09-Sep-2008 04:20:54)

Re: Big Bang !

[Editting myself: Bad Zarf!  Bad!]

[ yikes sad ]

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Big Bang !

"Yes we can, but it's accuracy is crap, range is crap, and effects vary shot to shot."

One could think the accuracy is pretty good when you're able to make 2 protons het eachother...

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Big Bang !

Scientists will kill this world before its time

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: Big Bang !

Particles have mass, this is something they are trying to find out why as well as those gravity things.

Since they have mass, they can accelerate other things with mass.

Since it has been demonstrated that light can be sped up... I am going to say that in some circumstances light in the sun is faster than light (rofl on the pun I guess)

Since they can then keep tag teaming a statistically unlucky Proton/neutron/electron this Proton/neutron/electron can be sped up to the speed of light via incremental speed increases.

I am assuming that you do know they sped up light here, but if you did not know this...

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

32 (edited by Justinian I 10-Sep-2008 09:34:00)

Re: Big Bang !

Yeah. If I notice stuff around me getting narrower, gravitating toward a common location, I am going to blame Nolio too.

My last words will be, "Nolio, it's all your fault!"

33 (edited by You_Fool 10-Sep-2008 09:50:48)

Re: Big Bang !

I worry about the mental ability and education level of people in the US and europe...

I also worry about the inability of my keyboard to work

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Big Bang !

A particle that has a mass cannot ever reach the speed of light, it would take an infinite amount of energy to reach that speed.
Never heard of Albert Einstein's relativity theory Flint?

What do I have to work with?

35 (edited by [TI] Sitting Duck 10-Sep-2008 16:13:35)

Re: Big Bang !

Flint, the speed of light (in a vacuum) c = 3x10^8m/s is a fundamental constant. Light cannot be "sped up", the group velocity of light can exceed c, but that is a completely different velocity:P. Particles with rest mass  cannot achieve c.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Big Bang !

lol Why do i feel like I am going to jail if a blackhole sucks up all but myself and a few other ppl?:p

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: Big Bang !

hehehe

well.. like i thought, we didnt die wink...

Re: Big Bang !

Some people belive that the effects wont happen for a few years however.. Meh, i like physics and i am very excited about the answers the lhc can bring big_smile

Re: Big Bang !

i blame nolio for us not dieing

screwed either way wink

Re: Big Bang !

lol, i thought you wrote "i blame nolio for not dieting"

till the end of time..

41 (edited by Einstein 11-Sep-2008 00:59:51)

Re: Big Bang !

light has mass, mass can push. 

If light is exceeding C then it can push things past' C fer sure.

Considering the constant bombardment and chaotic discord in the sun, then must be a significant portion when 'fired' in the correct direction exceeds the speed o' C, where in it can statistically hit a particle already propelled near C.

Relativity has no bearing here, Einstein were being wrong, been proven a few hundred times.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

42 (edited by Gladiator 11-Sep-2008 01:47:42)

Re: Big Bang !

> SuperSoaker Sammy wrote:

> Scientists will kill this world before its time


i agree 100%, like they need something better to do with their time, why mess with something that aint broken
i could care less how the universe was made tongue
also, i think a bit too much money was spent for this, and i think we have a bit too much money lying around if we're guna start wasting it like this
and this is only my opinion too btw, you might get excited by this(in which case, go to your local nightclub today!) but i just think it's a waste big_smile

Re: Big Bang !

Einstein, let me explain somethin': Sittin' Ducks studies physics, ye can't win this one!  tongue

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Big Bang !

Lol humidity, they arent up t' those tests yet wink

They arent up t' th' tests were they collide th' particles, just tryin' t' make th' run aroun' th' track really fast one way wink

Your = possessive. As in, "your grammar sucks."
You're = you are. As in, "you're an idiot for not knowing the difference."

Re: Big Bang !

Einstein!

stop sayin' ye were wrong >_<

[b]Piggy Power!

Re: Big Bang !

Einstein, isent it more like, light is energy an' energy means mass, All Hands Hoay! Like a nuke but in reverse.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: Big Bang !

Einstein's theory o' relativity is one o' th' most accurately measured theories in th' history o' science =/.  I can't really make out what exactly ye be sayin' in yer post.  I dern't think it makes an awful lot o' sense I'm afraid, All Hands Hoay!  Fetch me spyglass! The speed o' light is constant in all frames o' reference (this is actually one o' th' postulates underpinnin' th' theory o' relativity) so th' direction light is travellin' has no bearin' on anythin', Ya swabbie! 

Photons do have momentum an' can impart momentum on particles or objects through interactions with them, this is th' principle behind solar sails http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sails.  There is also quite a cool effect which makes asteroids with a lighter an' a darker side spin although I can't remember 'tis name, we'll keel-haul ye!  However...


Einstein's famous equation e =mc^2 shows us that energy an' mass be basically two aspects o' th' same thin'.  If thar is a mass m then it will have an intrinsic energy associated with that mass o' mc^2 an' if thar is an energy e it will have mass e/c^2.  As a particle speeds up it gains kinetic energy, an' therefore gains an equivalent mass as a result o' th' gain in energy, on a dead man's chest!  Goin' right back t' Newton a = F/m so t' accelarate an object with a greater mass takes a greater force.  The way th' equations work out it ends up that an infinite amount o' energy is required t' accelerate a massive particle t' c, which is clearly impossible.  This post were bein' goin' t' be more in depth an' coherent but I have got t' go now, in a rush, might be back later.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Big Bang !

I find it incredibly ironic that a man named "Einstein" is actually unable to comprehend Albert Einstein's theories of special and general relativity. 

Right then.  Here goes comes some bunkum-physics busting.


"If the means to create blackholes exists with this device, then the sun creates millions every nanosecond... it's simple science"

Incorrect.  The cores of stars varies from a few million to a few tens of millions of degrees.  In electron volts, this corresponds to an average energy of 0.3-3 mega eV.  The LHC will accelerate protons to velocities of several TeV - a thousand thousands times more energy than the average particle in a star's core. 


"Everything collides in the sun, and often at the speed of light."

Einstein demonstrated that: m = m_0/SQRT(1-v^2/c^2)

where m is the relativistic mass of the particle,  m_0 is the rest mass of the particle and v is velocity of the particle relative to an observer.  As v heads off towards the speed of light, the denominator approaches 0 and the equation diverges towards infinity in this limit.  Thus, as the particle accelerates, its relativistic mass increases, making it harder to accelerate.  Thus, any particle with a non-zero rest mass cannot reach a velocity equal to or greater than c. 


"and even if things would go terribly wrong and a black hole would suddenly become selfsustaining in energy nobody of us would know cause we'd all be dead in a matter of seconds( or not dead since nobody knows what happens in a darkhole."

There is a relativistic quantum mechanical process known as Hawking radiation, which is a process itself built upon well established and observed relativistic quantum mechanical processes.  In short, Hawking was able to show that black holes can evaporate, and this evaporation rate is inversely proportional to the size of the black hole.  Ergo, the large a black hole starts off as, the longer it will live.  Any black hole created inside the LHC will be tiny as the energy denisty will be quite negligible in comparison to some of the active galactic nuclei in existence.  So don't worry - a black hole will fizzle our faster than a poxy roman candle firework.


"light has mass, mass can push.  "

Light doesn't have mass; the electromagnetic field contains energy and thus is able to exert a pressure: p=hk/2pi (k is the photon's wave vector, defined as 2pi/its wavelength). 

A photon posses an energy equal to its frequency multiplied by a constant, known as Planck's constant, h.  When photons strike a surface, some of that energy is absorbed, some of it is reflected.  Using well established classical theories - see Netwon, Maxwell etc... - it is easily shown that the absorbed and reflected photons generate a pressure.  But that doesn't mean they have a mass... at least, not in the way you mean. wink


"Since they can then keep tag teaming a statistically unlucky Proton/neutron/electron this Proton/neutron/electron can be sped up to the speed of light via incremental speed increases."
and
"Considering the constant bombardment and chaotic discord in the sun, then must be a significant portion when 'fired' in the correct direction exceeds the speed o' C, where in it can statistically hit a particle already propelled near C."

There's no reason to assume that the laws of physics in the sun are any different to the laws of physics in the laboratory.  In fact, I think we know they're not...  As such, the equipartition theorem, and other thermodynamic and classical laws would apply, giving rise to a Maxwellian distribution of particle velocities whose mean is give by kT/2 multiplied by the number of degrees of freedom the particles posses. 

"So what?" I hear ou feebly cry.  Well, as I've already discussed, it isn't possible for a particle to be accelerated up to the speed of light as that implies its mass is infinite, which requires an infinite amount of energy.  I think, having just looked around under the desk, behind the back of the sofa and the place where my lost keys are normally found, I can safely say the universe does not posses an inifite amount of energy.  Ergo, particles in the sun - or universe, or anywhere else for that matter - cannot be "bumped up" to velocities equal to or exceeding the speed of light.

There is a process though called Compton up-scattering, which is the reverse of conventional Compton scattering.  In Compton up-scattering, particles with an everage energy A residing in an electromagnetic field with photons of average energy B, such that B > A, can find their energy increased upon a collision with a photon - this is classical binary collision stuff.  As such, particles can gain momentum from the electromagnetic field.  However, special relativity precludes the particles from moving at light speed.  (Have I said that before?) 



As for the LHC... particles collide in our upper atmosphere with energies higher than we're going to be using in the LHC experiment.  We're constantly being bombarded by particles with incredible energies, but amazing life goes on.  If you're unsure of this, I suggest you investigate making you're own "cloud chamber".  They're relatively simple to make and online recipes exist. 

Secondly, the energy denisties involved are not that large.  The chance of generating a black hole is negligible.  Even if we do make one, it will do very little except fizz a bit.  It will not grow, it will not gobble up CERN and it will not destroy the world.   


Damn.  That's quite a bit of time I'll never get back.  Oh well, must be off... work tomorrow, and I've got lots of exciting physics experiments to do...

To those who understand I extend my hand; To the doubtful I demand to take me as I am.