Re: US missile shield

>>They could reach Israel however.
And if Iran succeeds against Israel, then after moving there, they'd be a threat to Europe.
(which maybe isn't such a bad thing;))<<

Irrelevant:
If the security of Isreal was relevant to anybody the missile shield would be in Isreal.
If the threat posed by Iran was relevant to anybody the Missile Shield would have been built within reach of Iran.
__________

>>I see another good point of the shield. A missile shield can intercept accidentally fired ICBM's and therefore prevent MAD.<<

lol Accidentally fired ICBM? lol
I'm going to assume I don't need to point out the many things wrong with that, how impossible that is, but IF, IF, IF an ICBM were to be "accidentally" fired the ICBM would be blown up by the state in question because self-destruct buttons actually exist... sorry.


"So maybe a sollution in this conflict is to limmit the capacity of the shield to 5 or 10 permanently in exchange for russian assurance it will not attack any democracy again."

The solution is to shut up and shut down until someone can come up with a real reason for this thing to exist.
__________

Is it just me or are the people trying to justify this missile shield's existence starting to get desperate?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: US missile shield

so i guess no one hear read about it yet..but Russia last week flat stated that they will nuke poland, if the US put missiles their. and Russia has ICBM's that can maneuver once inborn and it was made to get around the US's defence shield; therefore rendering it useless.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Re: US missile shield

Poland should be nuked

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: US missile shield

I don't think self-destructs actually exist, I think that's James Bond.  Every missle that went off course OVER THE UNITED STATES fell intact and we had to go look for the sucker.  And I think we got a few Commie missles off the ocean floor too.  Further the "ballistic" in "ballistic missle" refers to the fact those suckers FALL to their targets.  And the new wave are MARV and MIRV which means the warheads break off and fall with some manuevers on the way down---I doubt each of them has a separate self-destruct.

And a piece of paper Russia signed would also make a good shield for their conventional bombs, which as you see they don't mind dropping on civilians.

Why should I fear allout nuclear war, you Euros assure me we've destroyed the planet anyhow. Remember?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

55 (edited by Soth 23-Aug-2008 18:13:17)

Re: US missile shield

I think the reaction of the europeans on this forum is even more frustrating than Russia's reaction.  They would rather act passively to a proven aggressor in their backyard.  Come on.  Big brother USA is trying to help. you dont need Russia wink

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: US missile shield

Russia has the oil & gas europe needs.The US has only debt and bombs and more bombs and debt.

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: US missile shield

> Soth wrote:

> I think the reaction of the europeans on this forum is even more frustrating than Russia's reaction.  They would rather act passively to a proven aggressor in their backyard.  Come on.  Big brother USA is trying to help. you dont need Russia wink

Nah, we've had to live with Russia a long time now, we know what they're like, they're all hot air and bluster smile

Re: US missile shield

They even cancelled Stargate Atlantis,one reason more to not need them.

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: US missile shield

"Russia has the oil & gas europe needs.The US has only debt and bombs and more bombs and debt."

I say, let's mix our bombs with their oil and gas, adn we'll all be in debt

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US missile shield

> TheYell wrote:

> I don't think self-destructs actually exist, I think that's James Bond.  Every missle that went off course OVER THE UNITED STATES fell intact and we had to go look for the sucker.<

That is because you wanted the warheads back, and you didn't want weapons-grade plutonium raining down of the god-fearing town of Lesbianville.


>And I think we got a few Commie missles off the ocean floor too.<

Two failed tests and a sunken sub, if I remember rightly; but don't quote me on that. wink


>Further the "ballistic" in "ballistic missle" refers to the fact those suckers FALL to their targets.  And the new wave are MARV and MIRV which means the warheads break off and fall with some manuevers on the way down---I doubt each of them has a separate self-destruct.<

Why? Does it not make sense for someone to surrender at the very moment they realise that there really are five 10mt warheads inbound?


>And a piece of paper Russia signed would also make a good shield for their conventional bombs, which as you see they don't mind dropping on civilians.<

Serves these civilians right for shooting at Ossetians.


>Why should I fear allout nuclear war, you Euros assure me we've destroyed the planet anyhow. Remember?<

Because a nuclear war would actually affect you rather than your grandchildren?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: US missile shield

> esa wrote:

> They even cancelled Stargate Atlantis,one reason more to not need them.
__________________________________________________________________
Worthy of bumpage due to its effectiveness in humouring us during a serious "conversation" on this topic...thanks! lol

"I will fight for your right to be wrong!" << S.G. Tallentyre
"I am a flexible centrist: not stuck on right-wing, not stuck on left-wing, and not stuck on centre...and I don't flip-flop either" <<< me tongue
Fighting for peace is like stopping the raping of a virgin.

Re: US missile shield

"I don't really understand why Russia is bristling so much over a defense system."


Because the system is meant to stop missiles like the ones Russia fired at Georgia from working. So of course Russia is mad, they cant randomly fire crap at other countries when they want if it goes up.

Song of the Day: In My Head - By Jason Derulo

Re: US missile shield

>>That is because you wanted the warheads back, and you didn't want weapons-grade plutonium raining down of the god-fearing town of Lesbianville.<<

Even the ones without warheads, which would have been safer as a rain of parts.

>Two failed tests and a sunken sub, if I remember rightly; but don't quote me on that. <

b4 my time, but in the 1960s Howard Hughes built something like a moving oil derrick called the Glomar Explorer that got a Ruski sub off the seafloor around Hawaii.

>>Why? Does it not make sense for someone to surrender at the very moment they realise that there really are five 10mt warheads inbound?<<

Actually that's when we planned to launch everything we got. It's a confirmed launch that causes the real trouble.  Plus every ounce of extra gear detracts from something else.   Better to have 5 dumb warheads than 3 fancy ones, because the first strike may be all you get.

>Serves these civilians right for shooting at Ossetians.<
You know crazy pro-American sources like the BBC witnessed Russian bombs taking out apt buildings?

>Why should I fear allout nuclear war, you Euros assure me we've destroyed the planet anyhow. Remember?<
Because a nuclear war would actually affect you rather than your grandchildren?<<

Naw.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US missile shield

<Even the ones without warheads, which would have been safer as a rain of parts.>

I imagine it is easier to make such a tactically stupid decision when the missiles are over your own land.


<b4 my time, but in the 1960s Howard Hughes built something like a moving oil derrick called the Glomar Explorer that got a Ruski sub off the seafloor around Hawaii.>

I read about that, that was almost as embarrassing for them as the spy-plane incident was for you.


<Actually that's when we planned to launch everything we got.>

You seem to have misunderstood my post: For that scenario to exist your missiles would already have to be in the air.

<It's a confirmed launch that causes the real trouble.  Plus every ounce of extra gear detracts from something else. Better to have 5 dumb warheads than 3 fancy ones, because the first strike may be all you get.>

That argument would have held some weight (not intended) some years ago, before your government decided all of their warheads were too big and downgraded them all.
But anyway: You should not be so prejudiced against Non-American sources, then you would know that your missiles do indeed have destruct buttons, and (according to rumour only, I admit) the Russians do not, or at least did not for some time.


<You know crazy pro-American sources like the BBC witnessed Russian bombs taking out apt buildings?>

That's what happens when you decide to over-compensate and use cluster bombs to kill a sniper, as your boys discovered in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the Isrealis discovered when they bombed... Who did they say was the source of all evil last year?
Luckily for you I share the American point of view on matters like these: Serves these civilians right for shooting at Ossetians.


<Naw.>

lol

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

65 (edited by TheYell 27-Aug-2008 15:11:33)

Re: US missile shield

1. Civilians in Gori weren't shooting at anybody, and nobody was using that building to shoot at anybody, unlike in Iraq and Lebanon.

2.  US forces in Iraq don't use cluster bombs since the invasion.  We prefer 500-lb bombs for close air support that take otu the whole building the sniper is in, or we use a 2000-lb JDAM robot-wing smartbomb for precision hits.

3. Once again you must whine about AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA when discussing the Russia/Georgian conflict.

4. Everybody knows an American first-strike would be with bombers!

5.  "A one megaton weapon would cause 105 square miles of 3+ psi destruction. With firestorms, the 20 Kt encirclement pattern can readily envelope 105 square miles in total destruction, leaving no escape for the inhabitants. At a population density of 12,000 per square mile the 20 Kt encirclement pattern might well produce 53% more deaths than a single one megaton weapon, which is to say, approximately 1,082,884 deaths with 20 Kt encirclement versus approximately 708,426 deaths with a one-megaton blast.

...With the simultaneous detonation of eight 20 Kt weapons on a day with 35 mile visibility, the thermal energy from the initial blast throughout the 105 square miles would be sufficient to ignite items having the same degree of flammability as thin black rubber at every point that was in line of sight of the contributing weapons. At Hiroshima (12.5 Kt), the approximate area characterized here by the flammability of rubber was involved in a firestorm.

...Although the high-tech aspects of the physics of a single weapon usually receive greatest attention, the physics involved in a confluence of blast forces and thermal energy from multiple weapons simultaneously detonating can be made to present far greater destruction in an urban environment than can a single thermonuclear weapons of the sizes that currently predominate.

There are two reasons for this: First, there is a ceiling on the amount of destruction that a single weapon can produce, because the radius of destruction for any given level of blast increases approximately as the cube root of the energy output, measured in kilotons. Further, a very large weapon, say one half megaton, must be detonated at a higher altitude (0.9 miles higher than a 20 Kt weapon) to maximize 3.5+ psi destruction, making it further from the target. Thus each increase in yield often has a modest incremental increase in destruction in urban areas. These limitations on destruction can be overcome by simultaneously detonating clusters of weapons, using patterns such as encirclement. The use of cluster bombs with conventional weapons (as in NATO's 1999 war in Yugoslavia) also illustrates the effects that can be achieved with multiple explosions in a specific area.

Second, it is not generally appreciated that some buildings and humans escape destruction when individual nuclear weapons are used alone. As Glasstone states, "close to ground zero the casualty rate will be high, but it will drop sharply beyond a certain distance . . . [p. 545]." Indeed, the earlier tables for Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed large percentages of "uninjured." The survival rate for humans in the exposed area beyond the 2 psi boundary has the potential to be in the order of 75+%, as can be seen in the earlier tables of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Closer in, at static overpressures in excess of 2 psi, survival rates can be in the neighborhood of 45% of the total population in the area. A similar percent of buildings may survive. Heavy multistory steel-frame construction may be especially resistant to blast pressures and survive. The only such building nuclearly attacked in Japan was 0.85 miles from ground zero in Nagasaki [6.7 psi]. It remained standing [Glasstone, p. 162]. But, as Glasstone points out, weakening of unprotected steel by fire can contribute significantly to the damage to steel-frame structures [pp. 162, 165]."

To overcome deficiencies in single weapon targeting, the incentive among weapon planners will be to use a simultaneous burst of multiple weapons. In an urban environment, the firestorms produced would insure that few humans or buildings would survive. As horrendous as past firestorms and nuclear attacks were in Japan, there were always a substantial number of survivors. A simultaneous blast of multiple weapons in an encirclement pattern raises the specter of no avenue of escape -- few to no survivors, a new plateau of horror in the history of war. This would be the case with even crude nuclear weapons of 20 Kt size.

...Simultaneously detonating nuclear weapons would produce greater and more complex forces than indicated by the individual circles in the above diagram. With 7 weapons in a circle, at the midpoint between zero point distance [half of 4.3 miles], two 20 Kt blast waves would collide at the 1.6 psi overpressure points. On interior points of the circle, the blast waves, depending upon the angles at which they met, would be reflected or merge. The key feature of encirclement in terms of blast forces is that the energy on the interior of the circle would be concentrated in a comparatively small area instead of dissipating from the zero point at a 128

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

66 (edited by Phoenix Mailer 27-Aug-2008 17:00:48)

Re: US missile shield

if US puts its shield in poland then russia will have no choice but to strike poland and occupy it
US military knows it but unfortunately certain forces want the war (as one banker i talked said "there have been no major wars for too long") so they can finally have their war profits again

so both US and russia will be put into position to fight each other

67 (edited by TheYell 27-Aug-2008 17:18:50)

Re: US missile shield

NO CHOICE? they coudl do nothing, or put counterABM systems in Belarus, or jack up energy prices until NATO gave up on the idea, or create a protofascist Ruski monopoly industry on ABMs and outbid the Patriot missles as the Polish ABM of choice...

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US missile shield

so you are saying russian should just stay still like a chicken waiting to getting cooked? or that russia should just be defensive and not offensive and only american can be offensive and get in position and prepared for a possible undecided future invasion of russia?

i wouldnt be comfortable if my neighbor whom i had a conflict with had a gun in his house. i would certainly try to do anything possible to defend myself from any possible intrusion by him. and same goes to russia and US.

i love you all!

Re: US missile shield

The russians should just roll over and hand russia over to US/UK.They shouldn

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: US missile shield

"so ye be sayin' russian should just stay still like a chicken waitin' t' gettin' cooked, yo ho, ho or that russia should just be defensive an' not offensive an' only american can be offensive an' get in position an' prepared fer a possible undecided future invasion o' russia?
Yaaarrrrr!

i wouldnt be comfortable if me neighbor whom i had a conflict with had a gun in his house.  i would certainly try t' do anythin' possible t' defend meself from any possible intrusion by that scurvey dog.  an' same goes t' russia an' US."

Includin' kickin' down th' door o' yer neighbor an' tyin' that scurvey dog up an' preparin' t' ambush US from HIS attic?--because that is what Russia threatens t' do t' Polan', shiver me timbers

"The russians should just roll o'er an' han' russia o'er t' US/UK.They shouldn

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

71 (edited by FromAbyss 11-Sep-2008 02:23:28)

Re: US missile shield

Phorum Phantom: receive, the fascist, to a pomegranate! smile

It what it is possible to reach if to push the nations on war because of resources?
The greatest value on the Earth is a fresh water and food!
Instead of the notorious oil jumping in the price, as fluttering hardly green autumn sheet on a tree (dollar). smile
If the government cannot organise existence of the citizens in the conditions of the limited resources citizens are free to choose to themselves a residing or earnings place.
Also it is citizens of the USA (subjugators of "the wild West") should understand better other nations living constantly in the historical territories.

And an antimissile shield - nonsense.
The same that REIGAN the defensive initiative. You, as before, fool more to spend for arms.
Well still, in your senate there are thinking people and could limit allocated means for this New Year's cracker.

Re: US missile shield

I, a fascist pomegranate!?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.