1 (edited by Torqez 12-Sep-2013 04:27:24)

Topic: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

We all know that market overbid is so often, like if we put buy bid iron qty 100k at 10gc, and in less than 5 min we can see someone also put another bid only at 10.01 just to bypass queue. That so often because IC allow difference to 0.01 gc.

My idea is to make a litle penalty to overbid, like must bid atleas 5% difference to previous price. So in that case, someone must bid atleas 10.5 gc. And if another want to overbid again, then he must bid at 11.03 gc, etc.

If it seem a litle hard, then we can add time constraint, like if a bid created within an hour then need 5% difference to overbid. If created 1-3 hours, need 4%. if created 4-12h need 3%, and so on until if more than 24h no need difference limit or 0.01 gc allowed.

This also apply to selling bid.

Food price can be different, but somehow almost the same because if someone put 0.10 gc, to overbid need 0.105 but because smallest fraction is 0.01 so it will need 0.11 to overbid.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

I don't see the point to this idea since the overbidding isn't an issue...

You have now been infected with Bird flu. Good day.


~Testudinae~

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Just because you not feel it then its not an issue. Try to look behind that. All I know bidding has rules, and one of it is about differences to previous bid. Its funny that if someone bidding to a goodie like 10 usd then someone come and easy overbid it just by saying 10 usd + 1 cent.

Before fraction introduced, IC market have very stable and realtime supply and demand. At normal condition iron stick on 11-12 gc (11 buy bid and 12 sell bid), at war market move to higher like 16-17 gc (16 buy bid and 17 sell bid). Why that can happen, because people know value of 1 gc and everyone try to stay in queue.

Today, anyone just easy to overbid any price, because it easy to violate the queue. This may be affecting how people behaviour at market, like everyone now morelikely lazy to put bid on market.

And because your behaviour already affected by the new market (after fraction and decay introduced), you feel this not an issue. Go try to think as SS resourcer, who build only resources and depend his life on market selling resources. Anytime put selling bid at 10 gc, then other can easy overbid on 9.99 gc, and then 9.98, then 9.97... and so on. This make the first who placing at 10 gc will loss too much from decay, just because everyone violate queue.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

First off, I'm not sure how practical implementing a % as the minimum bid factor is.  For the purposes of explaining why this is a bad idea, I'm going to leave it as a set # of .5 increases.

For some reason, you're assuming that the same people underbidding by .01 would stop just because they have to go from 10 to 9.5.  If you're online with lots of resources, need cash quick, you're going to drop in the lowest market bid.  If 5 people happen to be online at the same time, either a. they won't bid decreasing overall market activity and leading families to produce more resources in house decreasing the possible income from the market, or b. the market is going to drop 2.5 gc instead of .05-.5 gc.

If anything, take the hundredth's away from everything but food.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

You think this is not good idea because people behaviour in market now verymuch different. Back to ages ago when no fraction and no decay, people still like to put bid on buy or sell. Now people don't want to bid for sale because it easy to underbid, you put 100k iron at 15 gc and next minute you see someone put 100k iron at 14.99 gc, its so silly. There is no suply demand mechanism anymore. Thats why people more likely to sell directly, and this lead to unresonable lower price for commodity, I can put some bid on endurium at 7 gc, and within 1-2 hours I received that, but at other time I put a buying bid at 20 gc and next minute I saw larger bid at 20.01.

All this also make SS life harder. Don't laugh to SS, unfriendly system make this kind players leave. So my idea for this is:
1. to prevent silly overbid/underbid
2. to give SS chance to live.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

There are other ways to play S/S.

You have now been infected with Bird flu. Good day.


~Testudinae~

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Show us those other ways, if you can't describe it then you must be trolling here.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

the same way that SN was played without a market.

Valour-the courage to do what scares you to death

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Valcona wrote:

the same way that SN was played without a market.


Indeed.  What are you even talking about with "show us those other ways".  We just finished a no market SS galaxy where many players did extremely well tongue

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Undeath wrote:
Valcona wrote:

the same way that SN was played without a market.


Indeed.  What are you even talking about with "show us those other ways".  We just finished a no market SS galaxy where many players did extremely well tongue

Lol... I'm qurious how you both thinking. SN is success because all use the same race, even at -30% all will always success except everything get slower.

In normal galaxy, SS player should be able to use all available aspect, it doesn't mean SS player must build everything. Was when market active enough, SS player can use race with -30% income and focus only on resources, even at that time no resource planets and research on resources.

What I want to highlight in here not only SS ways, but how to make market more reasonable. Every changes in game must be balanced. Like this:

1. was CF=6 gc, and LQ=500 pop, at that time LQ have much advantage over CF. Then CF increased to 10 gc with inflation risk, but because complexity to most people and advantage to some other then CF reduced to 8 gc without inflation. This turn to make LQ not interesting anymore, then LQ increased to 650 pop. This is a good balance in game change.

2. was no decay on resources, then resources decay introduced, then also resource planets, and also research on resources. This make resource banking as important as cash banking, this also a good balance in game change.

3. was no fraction, market price in integer, and everyone like to put bid either buying or selling, so supply and demand work very well, also no decay and selling cost, so seller have no penalty, market can be a good dynamics in IC galaxies. But then fraction introduced, decay, selling cost. People don't like to place bid anymore, and I don't see good balancing for this. So I propose to make a new change, a litle step to give another balance in changes made. One of it is to reduce "SILLY OVER/UNDER BID" which make people don't like to place bid or more likely to buy/sale directly -which affecting price to more fluctuative and not really based on supply and demand-.

Well, I think I already try to raise this idea and hope that real brained response, not from people thinking for short terms.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

ok here is your "real brained" response.

people buy/sell directly because they need the resource/cash immediately. I has nothing to do with price increments, decay or selling costs.

there are a lot of people that play the market to make cash or resources; however, they aren't going to wait forever for their bid to go through. So if you put a large bid on the market it will almost immediately be under/over bid. Changing the bid increments will not affect this dynamic.

playing the market, takes a lot of time and activity, and there is as much strategy to the market as there is in war.

Valour-the courage to do what scares you to death

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

I think the real issue is, 0.01 has no significance, and it's just being annoying.

Much better to get rid that extra degree of accuracy and perhaps keep it at 1 decimal place.

I'm not against 'queue jumpers', cos that's natural, if they're willing to pay a higher price.  The only problem we have in IC is that "a higher price" is not 0.01 of a resource.

So yea, I like this idea.  Make it 0.1, or to be radical and to see how it works, perhaps even try getting rid of the decimals (except for food) altogether.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that way, we'll see more variation and movement in the market, imo.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Torqez wrote:

I think the real issue is, 0.01 has no significance, and it's just being annoying.

Much better to get rid that extra degree of accuracy and perhaps keep it at 1 decimal place.

I'm not against 'queue jumpers', cos that's natural, if they're willing to pay a higher price.  The only problem we have in IC is that "a higher price" is not 0.01 of a resource.

So yea, I like this idea.  Make it 0.1, or to be radical and to see how it works, perhaps even try getting rid of the decimals (except for food) altogether.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that way, we'll see more variation and movement in the market, imo.

Yes, thanks for understanding smile

Food was sold in 100, its more likely to show as HF production, so easier to calculate building worth to gc as the other commodity.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Torqez wrote:

I think the real issue is, 0.01 has no significance, and it's just being annoying.

Much better to get rid that extra degree of accuracy and perhaps keep it at 1 decimal place.

I'm not against 'queue jumpers', cos that's natural, if they're willing to pay a higher price.  The only problem we have in IC is that "a higher price" is not 0.01 of a resource.

So yea, I like this idea.  Make it 0.1, or to be radical and to see how it works, perhaps even try getting rid of the decimals (except for food) altogether.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that way, we'll see more variation and movement in the market, imo.

Food can/should be put on the market in bundles of 100. That's what 1 farm produces. This makes it comparable to 1 iron or 1 endurium or 1 octa.

And yes, try for a round to get rid of decimals on the market. If that's too harsh, allow only steps of 0.5gc.

Optional idea:
Would it be interesting to make it public what amounts of stuff are on the market? Not everything, just the total amount of stuff offered/sought at the present price and for the next 1 or 2 price steps.
But to be honest, I don't know how this is handled on real stock markets...

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

I don't think that information is available in real life.  Only what volume of stuff has been traded during that particular day (or whatever period).

Shows which stocks have the most activity.

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

While I think discrete's reasoning for getting rid of the decimal places is dumb, I think it would be a good idea to get rid of them anyway.  IF we also get rid of the market cap.  If you get rid of decimal bidding but leave cap at 50, or even 100, you'll just see small players being completely locked out of the market.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: [Implemented] Market overbid minimum increment

Implemented! Decimals are gone for Iron/End/Oct!