Topic: Illegal Alliance Rules

How do you guys feel about the rules around illegal alliances in general?

Personally, I strongly dislike them.  I understand what they are meant to prevent but to me they are restricting the game from being playable in a more realistic manner.  They are depriving us of a more fluid, interested, and dramatic experience.

A few examples come to mind:

1) Specifying coordinates for another family to take as per this thread: http://imperialconflict.com/forum/viewt … ?id=182017
2) multiple small families or alliances taking on a larger family or alliance
3) paying (with planets) a larger player in a different family to take somebody out of your core

The above are all forbidden, and I wonder how much more interesting this game might be if they weren't.  I know that some people will strongly disagree with the thought of even allowing some of these (#2 especially) but to them I ask to really challenge their idea of what it is to play this game.  I think we are missing a chance to make this game far more exciting, and missing opportunities to keep smaller players in inactive families interested if they can also coordinate with other smaller players outside of their small inactive allies.

This game has become so formulaic.  I think changing some of these rules could make things more interesting.

So what do you think?  Are our current IA rules doing more to help the game or hurt it?

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I voted that they are fine the way they are, I do not think it would be good for the game. It opens too many cans of worms imo.

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Can you give some examples?  I'd be interested to see if there's a way to solve such problems without putting such heavy restrictions on gameplay.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Im just curious where the line would be drawn? You mention smaller fams teaming up on larger fams but what would stop #2 and #3 fams from teaming up on #1 fam or the entire bottom half of the galaxy from teaming up on #1 fam? 1 fam can not face a ton of fams at once purely because of morale. You have 3 or 4 fams attackers (8) fighting 1 fams attackers (2). Too me it just seems like there will be way to much shady stuff going on.

<&InSaNe> so for reference tco has a ticklish bumhole
<@SerialBusiness> good to know. I will make a note of this

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Remo wrote:

You mention smaller fams teaming up on larger fams but what would stop #2 and #3 fams from teaming up on #1 fam

This already can happen if #2 and #3 are allies.  What this would allow though is #2 #3 and #4 to all gang up on #1.  I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, because if #1 has friends he can also get them to fight back.

This is what I mean, right now the game is essentially a round long chain of fam-vs-fam or ally-vs-ally.  I don't understand why such rigidity is a good thing.  What sounds more fun to me is if it's a free for all and the bottom ranked family can recruit 5 other small families of mostly inactive players to launch a campaign against a larger and more coordinated family or alliance.  If they're too uncoordinated or inactive to do so then they will fail anyway.  If they can actually pull it off then why shouldn't they be rewarded?

Or to put it on the flipside, the top 4 fams could all agree to work together to dominate the round.  They might be pretty successful up front but this would also allow 20+ families to challenge them all at once.

Remo wrote:

or the entire bottom half of the galaxy from teaming up on #1 fam? 1 fam can not face a ton of fams at once purely because of morale. You have 3 or 4 fams attackers (8) fighting 1 fams attackers (2).

See above.  That sounds like way more fun to me honestly.  I wouldn't consider this "shady" but rather it could make the game more challenging for the top fams and also give more opportunity to the small fams.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I like pie wrote:

Can you give some examples?  I'd be interested to see if there's a way to solve such problems without putting such heavy restrictions on gameplay.




I just don't think it's right that one fam with 100 planets has to fight 3 or 4 fams with the combined planet count of 300 because someone in the 100 planet fam is a douche. Surely you've read the "we'll farm you to the ground or to delete if you don't get so and so out of your family" posts etc etc. You'd have to have a whine thread for the venting... Can Bara ever play again without being picked on every round? by everyone? And that's just the start of scenarios...

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

So you've been honorable all round, you're going to win the round because you played fairly etc, the rest of the Galaxy doesn't think you deserve to win (percieved farming, dodgy moves, or just don't like Render winning) so they all drop their NAPs and send you to the bottom. You forget the crap that has already gone on before when it is an Illegal Alliance, is it even worth playing with certain people knowing that their head hunted by other players? Why bother playing for a month when you can lose it all in one day?

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

~* Darth Vader wrote:

I just don't think it's right that one fam with 100 planets has to fight 3 or 4 fams with the combined planet count of 300 because someone in the 100 planet fam is a douche.

I actually think this could be a useful deterrent for players that want to be such jerks.  Think about the inverse: right now the fact that people can't do this means that players can pretty much be huge assholes without any repercussions.  Allowing people to deal with them would make them consider their words more than they have to now.

And if they still want to be a jerk?  That's completely fine.  But it will be on whatever leader is leading the family to put a reign on such a player.  To me this is a great example of social complexity that is missing from this game.


~* Darth Vader wrote:

Surely you've read the "we'll farm you to the ground or to delete if you don't get so and so out of your family" posts etc etc. You'd have to have a whine thread for the venting... Can Bara ever play again without being picked on every round? by everyone? And that's just the start of scenarios...

I agree that this is a problem, but I think it is a separate problem.  We have ideas in the works that will more effectively allow players to play anonymously.  If they choose not to do so, something like the above would be a result of that choice.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

~* Darth Vader wrote:

So you've been honorable all round, you're going to win the round because you played fairly etc, the rest of the Galaxy doesn't think you deserve to win (percieved farming, dodgy moves, or just don't like Render winning) so they all drop their NAPs and send you to the bottom.

This is important though.  People at the top being a target for those who aren't is not a new thing, nor is it a bad thing in my opinion.  If that family in your example wants to stay at the top they will have to strategize defensively more than they do now.  And they wouldn't be sent "to the bottom" but rather they would lose their standing.  Why should they be guaranteed a top spot all round just because they were successful in the beginning?

What you point out is reflective of rank churning.  If it's harder for the top to stay at the top, only the very skillful will be able to actually do so.  Right now it requires skill to get to the top, but not the same level of skill to stay there.

~* Darth Vader wrote:

You forget the crap that has already gone on before when it is an Illegal Alliance, is it even worth playing with certain people knowing that their head hunted by other players? Why bother playing for a month when you can lose it all in one day

I haven't forgotten.  I think these rules were added with good intention but I think they were the wrong changes to be made.  Not only are they restrictive but they also involve human understanding and intervention (the mods).  What I am suggesting is to remove (or at least modify) these rules and address the underlying imbalance more properly from a programmatic perspective.  You can prevent a player or family from losing everything "all in one day" by implementing new game mechanics.  What we have done instead is tried to prevent it with vague rules that require guidelines to be interpreted by a volunteer staff that is already scarce in time and resources.

Restrictions are a touchy thing.  Restrictions that require judgement calls to enforce are even worse.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

What would be so wrong with "illegal alliances"? Its real world for the little dogs to team up and take on a big dog. This way it would be more uncertain who would win each round and the top fams would have to watch their backs just like the small fams do.

on the other hand, if two larger fams teamed up they could rule the 'verse.

i think the game would be much more interesting if we could team up with whoever. this is in essence what we are doing when we sign naps anyways. agreeing to take on a partnership of not attacking eachother. So why not allow fams to team up with who they please and drop them when they want.

as i said, it would bring a "i wonder if they will cross us, maybe we should cross them first" mentality and maybe that would be a little more fun than "well it looks like that fam is going to win again"

This is a war game after all.

"I was beginning to think you were afraid to fight."
"I'm just naturally lazy, but I will if I have to."

Retired

11 (edited by ]PW[ Forever 05-Mar-2013 21:43:55)

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I just don't believe a fair fight should resort to "asking" for help. Losing planets then sending retakes to planets which are now in the hands of the Fam you beat earlier and are now NAP'd to because that was the only thing the beaten Fam could do to get their round back on track. Next thing you know you're down 100 planets because you got shafted by the Fam your fighting because they handed those planets to another Fam for "safe-keeping".

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I agree that fairness is important, but I disagree that what you are describing is unfair.

What I do think is unfair is that very active players exist within mostly inactive families and stand no chance so might as well stop playing.  I think that's what happens, and is part of the reason for our declining player count.

Your example above will make the game more difficult for the people who currently do well.  I can understand that's why people dislike the idea: it pulls the carpet from underneath the people who are good at playing this game by its established rules.

Unfortunately I think the established rules turn away new players, and keep the same set of people at the top which is probably why these kinds of suggestions are so strongly disliked by people who have been around for such a long time.  They like winning (who doesn't) and this kind of idea would make it harder for them to do so.

I think however, that this is a bad game design and even worse for the game's long term future.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

You a correct in saying the established rules turn away new players, but surely this is at the bottom of the list as to why. I mean, half a day for something to build (provided you're allowed to)? Having to do what you're told "because thats the way to win"?

Halve the build times. People these days just turn the x-box\psp\wii\PS3 on. Has anyone actually thought through the Psychie of the current players? Obsessive compulsive springs to mind....

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Oh... maybe a Galaxy with shorter build times for the n00bs? I guess it wouldn't work as I believe you can't have different types of Galaxy options..?

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Well, we can't change galaxy types to that degree yet but it is something we want to do.

Although, I think that is besides the point.  You said it pretty well here:

~* Darth Vader wrote:

People these days just turn the x-box\psp\wii\PS3 on. Has anyone actually thought through the Psychie of the current players? Obsessive compulsive springs to mind....

I think that is very true, but think about what that actually means.  To me, it means the game's design has resulted in that only the obsessive compulsive types do well at this game.  We've filtered out the casual gamer.  I don't think we should tailor to just the obsessive compulsive, I think we should broaden the range of the type of players we are able to keep interested.  This will increase overall activity and make the game more enjoyable for newbies and vets alike.

~* Darth Vader wrote:

Having to do what you're told "because thats the way to win"?

This goes back to the comment I made about the game being formulaic.  If we disturb the formula that is required to win, then people will no longer do this to new players.  Right now the vets know exactly how to win this game, it's just a matter of who can have the most active family and who can get the most obedient new players.  Removing or changing the IA rules would disrupt this entire system.

~* Darth Vader wrote:

the established rules turn away new players, but surely this is at the bottom of the list as to why

I disagree that this is at the bottom of the list of things that deter newer players.  It's not clear perhaps, but it's imo a huge factor in the activity problem we have, which is very high on that same list.  Smaller families have no place in this game as it currently stands.  You either accept that you're going to lose and try to play for fun or you give in to apathy and stop caring entirely.

This attitude isn't good for the game, and directing new players to a special higher-paced galaxy isn't going to fix that.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

In a cancel War I just don't think you should have all your shares Sabotaged by Fams on the other side of the Galaxy that have nothing to do with it, leaving your attackers sending fleets from your home system, I mean who would want to War at all?

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

That's a fair point, but again I think it comes down to defensive planning.  Cancel wars would still happen but if you want to protect your shares then you'd better laser up or have decent op defense.

Cancel wars are great and should be encouraged, but as it is many of the current families will never even get to experience them.  The proposed changes could enable that experience to be had by more players.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

If anything is open to abuse in this game then this would top the list imo.

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

If anything is abusable it is rules that require interpretation, such as the current IA rules.  People often complain about the mods not doing anything about blatant IA.  Unfortunately, "blatant" IA is difficult to prove which is why we often can't act.

Removing the IA rules and supplanting the shifted balance with tweaks to the game mechanics would imo solve this abuse, not cause more.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I like pie wrote:

Removing the IA rules and supplanting the shifted balance with tweaks to the game mechanics would imo solve this abuse, not cause more.


Now you're talking about "tweaking" game mechanics... I'd like to know how, that may change my mind on things. OK then, why initially was IA introduced? would be interesting to know why and are the same things which made it "illegal" then still exist the way it's played today?

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I'm not sure what the specific tweaks would be.  That's part of the challenge: finding out what is needed and figuring out the right way to find a solution.

In essence this would be a "do over".  At some point in this game's history the staff saw a problem and the IA rules were added to fix it.  It's time we recognize these rules as more hurtful than helpful, and re-evaluate our options.  We can't do that until we rid ourselves of these rules to expose the underlying imbalance.

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22 (edited by ]PW[ Forever 06-Mar-2013 01:27:05)

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I'm all for giving it a go, just because I oppose it doesn't mean it won't work, if it makes it more fun then "hell yes" I'm all for it, but I know some of the players in this game rage over losing one single planet and vow for the next thousand years that they'll be hunting you. It doesn't take much to be "labelled" dishonorable and soon there's a lynching of an innocent person\family.

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

Indeed.  I agree that a change this significant should be handled very carefully.  The good news is, it doesn't require any code changes to try! big_smile

Speaking of trying, we could always give it a whirl for one round for one galaxy and see what happens.  Even if it fails, we'd still gain valuable insight into the underlying imbalance.  It's been quite a long time since those rules were enacted.  We need to refresh our collective perspective.

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Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I voted for it, we at least need to try it. smile

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Illegal Alliance Rules

I just worry it will be total anarchy, not sure I wanna play that way.

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