Topic: "State of Family Affairs"

I'm playing my first full round again in years and holy crap I forgot how painful and tedious this game can be to play.  It's no wonder people have lost interest, it just takes too much work to coordinate!

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a lazy player.  Quite the contrary, my current family and allies can attest to the ridiculous amount of forum threads and google spreadsheets I've been setting up and maintaining.  I did this years ago as well.  It shouldn't be this way though.  The game shouldn't rely on external mechanism to be played effectively.  Surely some players will inevitably make their own spreadsheets no matter what, but I think there are some blatantly obvious improvements that can be made to the way in which players are presented their own data.

For example: Just now I've logged into the game and my first thought was "hmmm I wonder if [certain player] built the buildings we discussed".  My process for these things goes like this:

1) check in-game messages
1.1) if the info i'm looking for is there, i'm done
1.2) if the info i'm looking for isn't there, go to chat
2) check fam chat room to see if he's there
2.1) if he is there, ask him
2.1.1) if he responds, i'm good
2.1.2) if he doesn't respond, check forum
2.2) if he is not there at all, check forum
3) check forum
3.1) if info is in forum, I'm good
3.2) if info is not in forum, send in-game msg
4) send in-game message
5) wait for a response

Look at how long that took just to explain.  And this is just for asking a simple question about buildings!  How can anybody but the extremely active and hardcore players have any chance at long term planning, if something so simple requires so much effort?

I know many things have remained the same over the years but I have to ask "why is it this way?".  Why must communication be so difficult?  Even if you have an active family, having insight into your own family's affairs requires far too much effort.  This game should be about strategy and planning, not spending so much time just getting info passed around.

That's why I think we should consider a "State of Family Affairs".  It would be a new page that allows anybody to see information about any specific family member, but also about the family in aggregate.  Buildings, fleet, news, etc.  Everything the player can see about his own empire, anybody can see about any family member.  This would also make it easier to train new players.

The viewing player wouldn't be allowed to actually do anything though.  I'm not saying that we let people play for eachother.  Rather, I think we should remove ourselves from our habits and ask ourselves why our team members' information needs to be such a mystery.  This would be a drastic change though, which is why I'm asking for feedback.  Personally though I think it would make the game less of a hassle to play, which could keep players interested and more active.
   
It's one thing to reward hard work with success.  It's another thing to require unnecessary work to be successful.  The difference is an important one.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

What an awesome idea!

<&InSaNe> so for reference tco has a ticklish bumhole
<@SerialBusiness> good to know. I will make a note of this

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

Great friggin idea pie. Also until it gets implemented, get WhatsApp with your family. It's like free texting and you can create chats too.

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

So I've chatted with some of the mods about this, and as usual they are good at preventing me from just going to town on game changes. =P  I do appreciate them for that though, their perspective is crucial.

Anyway, they had a few strong concerns and great points:


1) It would feel like I'm being spied on.

This is a very valid point.  I think to solve this, we could make it a system in which a player would have to opt-in.  That is, by default nobody can see anything about your empire unless you specifically allow this feature.


2) A rogue player could join and immediately have all the info.

This would be an extension of the above point.  Rather than saying "let my information be seen", you would say specifically "let the following people see my information".  So when a new player joins, he as no access to anything until he gains trust.


3) This removes the need for interaction.

As a whole, this is simply not true.  What it removes is the need for a very specific kind of interaction, being data-passing.  This is probably the most debatable part of this whole idea: is having to depend on communicating with others for the specific purpose of passing data a good thing or a bad thing?  In my opinion, this gets in the way of the real strategy that could be happening.  It also makes the game a slow and frustrating experience.

The counter-point as I understand it is that this kind of communication should be part of the game.  It promotes team work, and those who do well deserve the benefits they receive.  Removing this requirement punishes the active people by taking away the reward they get for putting effort into the game.  It would also cause people to be less active because they don't have to be.

My response to that is simply: not all activity is good activity.  If an active team is already active, this will make their lives easier too and allow all of them more time to participate in conversations about higher level strategy and planning.  I can't stress enough that I'm not suggesting automation or remote control empires.  What I am suggesting is the removal of the need to have to ask for data that should be freely available for trusted members of the family.  The game currently requires too much effort to just play at a basic level.  Removing these barriers would allow the game to be played more casually, by newbie and pro alike.

To say it another way, we should be able to play the game without having to figure out how to play the game.  The current restrictions on information get in the way of the actual strategy in my opinion.


4) The game will become too easy.

I think this will actually have the opposite effect.  The game will become more competitive.

Think of it this way: can every family win #1?  Of course not.  So even if this game is dead-simple to play, the competition will still be there.  There might even be more of it, because now a family can be effective without having to have every single member be online to communicate every single piece of information.  It would no longer be possible to secure a top spot by just having an active family: you would also have to have an active family that makes good decisions.

This would be a benefit for the whole galaxy and as such the entire game.  More competition is a good thing.


5) People will just stop playing if they don't have to communicate these things.

Nobody is going to say "Oh wow... i don't have to send messages anymore.  I guess I'll stop playing."  Instead I think people will say "Oh wow... I don't have to ask for this information anymore.  I can focus on strategy."

Again, not all activity is "good".  If it was required that you type in a CAPTCHA to send any fleet, some people will still do it and they would win.  Most however, would say "screw this game" and stop playing altogether.   I think if anything has caused people to stop playing, it's NOT doing something like this.

I think IC's current playerbase is a reflection of people who are persistent and active enough to play a broken game despite its flaws and inefficient design.  We have effectively filtered out casual players and those who can't play 24/7.  Is that really a good thing?


6) I don't like this!

Great, then don't use it.  The default opt-out mentioned in point #1 and #2 would mean that when a round starts, the game would behave exactly as it does today.  The only people who would be using this are those who decide to.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I like this idea, especially with the opt in condition as mentioned by pie. This idea would allow people like me that no longer play to rejoin. I currently don't play because the requirements of activity for communication of data only is too onerous. If I could play with a lower level of activity then I would more than happily be playing again.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

Just read this idea, BLEW MY MIND how genius it is!

- The Galeonis Empire

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

another option would be to have the leader set which players in the family can see the information provided instead of every player having to pick and choose the players that can see.

then you have players coming in and one player forgets to opt in on a new player so some players in the family are seeing different numbers.

let the leader mark all those trustworthy to see it and each player just has to choose if they want to opt in

fourdb

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

pie we <3 you

<@Nick> it always scares me when KT gets all dominatrixy
* I_like_pie is now known as pie|bbl
<@KT|afk> Look at him run!
<@Nick> if you tell him to slap you and call you mommy
<@Nick> i'm leaving and never coming back

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

> Galeonis wrote:

> Just read this idea, BLEW MY MIND how genius it is!


i love this idea

10

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

4) The game will become too easy.

I disagree, it'll actually allow a full fam effort to be more thorough, knowing whats going on etc etc

I'm for this idea. big_smile

Friend is a four letter word.

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

maybe a slight twist is to let only leaders/VL's to see the rest of the families affairs.

this gets rid of potential rogues/spies etc. VL's need more use anyway. & a leader is in a position of trust so should know what his family are doing.

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I love this idea too...

Solis - #7872

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I Like it! but I wouldn't wanna follow Flashys thoughts on it & making it for VL's only, because a lot of players see you have VL tag & then expect you to do diplo because you have  VL tag & I for one don't wanna have the VL tag just to be involved in this & be expected to diplo cos I don't like doing diplo!!!!!!!!!!!!! but would be more than happy to opt in otherwise.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

Agreed, I think this should be its own thing that requires no special tag to participate in.

By the way, it just occurred that this would also remove the need to families to post threads like "upkeep" and "under construction".  More examples of people being forced to pass data around that should be readily available to/from those who are willing to share it.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I'd like to seriously consider this idea.  If you guys don't mind could you vote for support/oppose in the original post so we can get an instant view of player feedback?

Thanks.

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Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I voted.


Support! big_smile

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

I like pie wrote:

That's why I think we should consider a "State of Family Affairs".  It would be a new page that allows anybody to see information about any specific family member, but also about the family in aggregate.  Buildings, fleet, news, etc.  Everything the player can see about his own empire, anybody can see about any family member.

To be honest, I am a bit puzzled.
Why is it so important for you wether somebody has build a certain set of buildings or not?

Attacks, explorations, many ops and operations one can see in the family news. Isn't that already hassle enough to stay informed?

Initially I voted "Oppose" due to some of the reason the Mods have already listed:

1) It would feel like I'm being spied on.

Yes, definetly.

b) It also allows a rigid command structure:
Some families are quite rigid how this game MUST be played, especially vs new players. This is one more way to give (and control) orders to new players what they have to build. While advice is a fine thing, rigid insistence is another thing. And supporting this IMHO rather bad behaviour with a tool for control I don't like.
This game can be played in many ways and giving every player a chance and some time to learn the game in his or her way is a fine thing which I see a bit threatened.

2) A rogue player could join and immediately have all the info.

And what an incentive for multis. Perhaps even placed as sleepers. A new source for mistrust and paranoia. 

I like pie wrote:

to solve this, we could make it a system in which a player would have to opt-in.  That is, by default nobody can see anything about your empire unless you specifically allow this feature.

The opt-in and out... yeah, a fine thing. It also splits the family in 2 parts, though, those who know and trust each other and those who don't. Especially in terms of "getting more new players AND keeping them" this might not be wise.

To sum it up, some things involved with such a reporting system I wouldn't like, some of those concerns can easily be erased with an opt-in solution, but in general I wouldn't feel the need for such a feature and thought it rather a waste of dev-time. But if the dev himself finds it great, well...

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: "State of Family Affairs"

Altruist wrote:

Why is it so important for you wether somebody has build a certain set of buildings or not?

Attacks, explorations, many ops and operations one can see in the family news. Isn't that already hassle enough to stay informed?

I hate to answer questions with questions, but the best way I can respond to this is: if a player wants to expose this information to another team member, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

The necessity of passing information around to eachother is the symptom of larger problem (rigid infra planning) that we need to solve as well.  The sooner we can get rid of the symptom, the sooner we can undertand and fix the larger problem.

Altruist wrote:

b) It also allows a rigid command structure:
Some families are quite rigid how this game MUST be played, especially vs new players. This is one more way to give (and control) orders to new players what they have to build. While advice is a fine thing, rigid insistence is another thing. And supporting this IMHO rather bad behaviour with a tool for control I don't like.
This game can be played in many ways and giving every player a chance and some time to learn the game in his or her way is a fine thing which I see a bit threatened.

I understand the concern, and it is a valid one.  However, this only gives insight, not control.  This will only be abused as much as a leader tries to abuse it.  If a leader is being overly insistent, that is a problem with the leader.  This problem already does exist, and the tool will facilitate it but it will also expose overly controlling leaders that much quicker.

On the flipside, this will allow new players to be trained much more easily.  If they're being trained in bad habits, the bad habits are to blame, not the training tool.

Altruist wrote:

And what an incentive for multis. Perhaps even placed as sleepers. A new source for mistrust and paranoia. 

The opt-in and out... yeah, a fine thing. It also splits the family in 2 parts, though, those who know and trust each other and those who don't. Especially in terms of "getting more new players AND keeping them" this might not be wise.

I disagree.  This can be a tool used to build trust and facilitate cooperation.  It's far too difficult to communicate within the game, especially for players who don't/can't get onto IRC.  This at its heart is a communication tool.

Altruist wrote:

To sum it up, some things involved with such a reporting system I wouldn't like, some of those concerns can easily be erased with an opt-in solution, but in general I wouldn't feel the need for such a feature and thought it rather a waste of dev-time. But if the dev himself finds it great, well...

"dev time" is a tricky thing.  It's a valid concern given our resource constraints and time limitations, but they shouldn't have an impact on any specific idea.  These conversations are meant to be about the usefulness of an idea, not the prioritization of it.  We're constantly working on many things and just because we're discussing an idea doesn't necessarily mean it is high on our to-do list.

For that reason, the "devs should focus on other things" is a bit unimportant to the discussion, even if a valid concern in general.  We have our own process to prioritize changes, but that process requires knowing what changes need to be prioritized.  Discussing ideas as if we had unlimited dev time allows us to do that.

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