1 (edited by Einstein 10-Sep-2012 14:53:39)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

This is my retort to Key. It is about equal outcomes, something he nonstop harps on.

First let me talk some information, generically, that he has posted here himself. He got a degree but is/was a dishwasher since he could not find a job in his field. His mother (or was it sister?) lost her house in the bubble crash.

That information is important for the final arguement against Key. For mods it is very generic and is like saying Flint was homeless and now drives truck, and is running for office. All of this is on forum, is known, and is not too specific.


Key lives in a fantasy world (my opinion) where he thinks all outcomes should be rigged for positive outcomes. I also believe that he fully endorses Barack Obama's "You did not build this" comment.


Not only will I break this illusion, I will burst the Barack Obama falsehood as well.


Equal outcomes is a fantasy of leftists. Deeply held it is the belief you can make changes in peoples lives to bring them 'up' to an outcome equal to a 'luckier' person. They also generally believe in bringing 'down' the rich to help with this 'equality'.



Key hear this now. Equal Outcomes is impossible.



This is easily proven by using regions. N. Dakota is farms and oil, Florida is aligators and bugs, Arizona is hot and desert, California beaches and farms, Utah a Salt Lake and mountains. Of course I am being generic in the extreme... but it points out differences of regions.

Then there is location inside a region. Small town versus city, north side versus industrial region...

There is differences in desired diet.... Atkins, Veg, Fish, Beef....

There is differences in intelligence, wisdom, charisma, strength, endurance, attractiveness, and so forth.


True equality is impossible.


Now for liberals, including Key I suspect, this is where they protest (while holding in their hearts there must be a way for true equality to still happen) that they did not mean true equality, just a reasonable equality. Or something equivalent.

They still believe in handing degrees to 'less fortunates', bailouts to 'poor home owners' (who bought the home hoping to flip it for higher later), to 'assistance' for those struggling with children and insufficient pay.


To that portion here is my retort.

My ex-wife worked at a call center part time. She could have worked full time, could have gotten enough pay to make her be able to pay the bills and raise her son as a working parent. She wanted it differently though. She had gotten on Section 8 and wanted to stay on Section 8. So she kept her income low on purpose.

She loved having less work and the same resulting housing, food, and bills covered.

I worked security at public housing. There were brand new Ford trucks in the parking lot owned by tenants who paid $50 a month in rent.


Key there is people who will cheat anything that is created if they can find a way. Thus all long term assistance is bad. Even Social Security Disability is abused frequently.



Next lets talk about scholarships, and 'equality based education'. This was tried in Kansas. An amount of money unheard of in education was spent. Yet they never tackled the true problems and no grades changed. Those problems were bad teachers, bad administrators, bad school boards, and bad parents.

Even amongst colleges there is inequality. Harvard degrees are worth more than Clackamas Community College degrees. Not all degrees are worth the same either.

The free market says there is to many artists, social studies, musicians, and actors to support at a reasonable expense.  Heck if I had the talent I would love to be a musician, called to work at most 2 hours a day and get middle class income... but that is not reasonable for most banjo players to expect.

I took drama and played in 3 plays. Should I be subsidized for my interest in the performing arts? Or should I try on my own time and dime to find that perfect gig?

Key equality of outcome is impossible.


Equal opportunity, where each can strive (or not) on their own is the best we can hope for.

I personally am striving hard. I used to be shy. No longer... I made my interest known, and now Tia and I are dating. I used to be poor, but now I work a difficult job and I get great pay. I used to cry at the unfairness of the world but now I tackle the problems and throw them to the ground.

But you are living a different world Key. You want to live in your small town and have your cake as well. You want your mom to have a house provided by others, since she clearly cannot support one herself.

Jobs not available there? Why not try elsewhere? You know you could be a truck driver like me. Or since you are on the coast you could become a fisherman. Why should you have the luxury of your coastal town and be supported by others?

Why are you so selfish as to think you are owed things instead of thinking that you should go out and EARN those things? Why not change your attitude about life and instead of crying how unfair it is... why not cut your own path to success?

You made yourself! You did it, not me, not Bill Gates, not Steve Jobs, not President Obama (Or Bush, or Clinton).


Do you think George Foreman was able to make a great business because of the Government? His competitors had the same access... why did some fail and he succeed?

Do you honestly believe every computer company succeeded because of Government? Was the fall of Commodore because of Government then?

Obama is wrong, you are wrong, all liberals are wrong in this.



No one should help you except yourself and maybe family. Giving should be voluntary, not compulsory. I should not work 60 hours plus a week so someone else can decide you can get the same pay for 10 hours a week.


Get off your arse and get a real life, a real job, a real attitude adjustment.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

2 (edited by Justinian I 10-Sep-2012 16:00:38)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Problem:

Politicians reward their donors with regulations, which actually function as barriers to entry in the market place. Examples include:

1. Consumer protection laws that small businesses can not afford.
2. Licensing. Therefore, you can not drive home drunk drivers for free (taxi companies will complain to the city council), or set up a lemonade stand. Additionally, licenses can be made to be cost prohibitive for prospective businesses (alcohol licenses), thus also creating a bottleneck and raising prices.
3. Zoning laws.

There is no equality of opportunity. Get over it, Flint! The only solution is to end a system where:

1. Business donor donates money to politician.
2. Politician gets elected and rewards business donor with barriers to entry.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

The solution is to make a death sentence upon those preventing childrens lemonade stands, and to cut the Governments useless laws down with a deathstar laser.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

What Obama speaks out fot is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. You can't promise equal outcome cause you can be run over by a bus tomorrow, but you can try to allow even the poorest of the poor to achieve some measure of success, even if they by themselves have no way of pursuing it. That would be what your country says it is all about right?

Did you really take drama classes?

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Electronics
Computers
French
Spanish (bad idea after French)
Marketing and Management
Shop
Forestry
Drama
Art
Phys Ed (weight room)

So yes... yes I did

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

"Key there is people who will cheat anything that is created if they can find a way. Thus all long term assistance is bad. Even Social Security Disability is abused frequently. "

Your not saying anything that hasn't been said before.  You do seem to place blame for everything in the economy on one man, which I do disagree with.  Mostly because your bored and attempting to keep the Political Forums active.  Mostly by making arguements that you know people will absolutely disagree with you about, or in some cases don't even bother to argue, because their fed up with the crap arguements you been making.  If you have a personal belief in how things are run, then argue for or against it.  Not OH, we have problems and it's all Obama's fault little arguements, which you've been doing quite a lot.

Take on Farmer Subsidies. Or that government pays farmers for not growing food.  OR ethonal subsidies.

Now if your wife chose to live a low income life, just because she didn't want the extra headaches of being a person in charge, PIC, manager....that's nothing I haven't heard before, because MY MOM CHOSE THAT VERY SAME DECISION.  So that's nothing to me.  I've turned down PIC and managers positions, mostly because it was going to be to problematic, to deal with customers that were coddled and baby'd a bunch of deals, that our store can no longer afford.  The overall manager has already instituted several policy changes which will slowly FIX that problem.  Next time you come into our lumber store, your not going to get a deal, just because your an idiotic homeowner, just because your an idiotic homeowner.  Our deals were specifically made for those that held a Contractor's License.  Not a homeowners license.  Not a business license.  A contractor's license.  We gave deals to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that came into our store and lied through their teeth. 

Now, my sister is a single mother.  So you can go screw yourself.

Yes, my Mom lost the house, due to foreclosure, because she took out a mortgage that the bank told her would help her get back on her feet.  That was a lie.  When the economy collapsed, Kroger, one of the many business companies, layed off thousands of workers, and those workers that were left behind, HAD THEIR HOURS CUT.  Once my mom's hours were CUT, she no longer earned enough money to, pay for food, bills, gas for the car, MONTHLY HOUSING INSURANCE, and the yearly Property taxes.  Personally Einstein, I don't think you even have a SMIDGEON of intelligence where it comes down to what happens during a financial crisis.  It rather pisses me off.

As for me.  I'm single.  My birthday was September 2nd, 1971.  So i'm 41 now.  Happy birthday to me.  I help pay my mothers MEDICAL needs.  Even though I can't afford to pay for my mothers medical needs of $60.00 a month.  Or to help feed my sister's child.   My nephew, is a growing boy, and he just loves to play and eat.  Which has dug a deeper hole into my finanances.  Yes it's a child, and things do happen.  Unfortunately my sister gets payed the minimum at Wal-Mart, so she doesn't really pull in enough money to help pay for food, gas, car upkeep, bills, rent....

Our family lives from month to month.  It's not very fun.  Not knowing if your going to get enough hours at work, to pull enough money to pay for necessities.

Now if your attacking me personally for shit that's beyond my damn control, i'd tell you to go to hell.  If your attacking me, for me attacking the system, again you can go to hell.

I don't care.  After 2007, I have become more pissy, more angry, and i'm not as cutesy as I once was before.

But these little personal attacks on one President, kinda eggs me on that I get rather annoyed.  Because you think this is "fun", and that your "bored", and you think it's "cool" to rile things up because you have nothing better to do.  And in that regards, that's your problem, not everyone elses.  Get a hobby.  Get more hours at work.  Or go get a god damn job, Mr. "I'm running for Oregon State Legislature", which turned out to be a lot more bullshit, and bad wind from you some time ago if I remember.

How's that legislature going?  Making the world a better place for Oregon's?  I havn't heard jack shit about you making things better.  All I see is you posting a bunch of crap.  For a man that wanted to change lives for the better, you don't seem to be doing a very good job at it.

And that's also what pisses me off.  You talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk, so you can just stand up from that chair of yours, get out the door, and go make a better place of Oregon, for Oregonians.  Otherwise, I don't have much care for the "It's all president Obama's fault".  Either get up and get out, or just sit there and go, "Oh, i'm going to attack Key, because I have nothing better to do this day, because he riled me up."

Are you riled up?  Your not even attacking the system anymore, your attacking me, AND, my family.  For choices we made?  Choices from ACTIONS that happened WAY beyond our control?  Screw you.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

You'll have to excuse me now.  Todays my day off, and i'm babysitting my 4 year old nephew.  We're going to the beach, so tongue thpppppppppppppt!

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Happy birthday Key!

Also I dont understand why you dont take Mitt Romney's advice and borrow money from your parents. Damn lliberals.

Enjoy the beach

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

"What Obama speaks out fot is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. You can't promise equal outcome cause you can be run over by a bus tomorrow, but you can try to allow even the poorest of the poor to achieve some measure of success, even if they by themselves have no way of pursuing it. That would be what your country says it is all about right?"

The poorest of the poor have a way of pursuing it, by themselves.  That's what this country is about.

And complaining that they must have a government program to do for them what they won't do for themselves is not "trying to allow" it is shoving others aside.

And the reason you're doing it is you didn't like the outcome of missed opportunity.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

the world needs ditch diggers too- caddyshack

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

11 (edited by Key 10-Sep-2012 21:48:50)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

And the world needs burger flippers too.

Not every american is going to find a "Good high paying job."  Their going to find minimum wage jobs.  And americans aren't liking that it's illegal aliens doing the burger flipping or washing dishes, or digging ditches.

As for me...when Einstein said up above that I washed dishes...yah....between the ages of 15-18 I washed dishes at a retaurant.  Then I was in the army for 2-1/2 years, doing communications.  After that I was UNEMPLOYED for six months, while the VA guy was looking for a "Good Job" for me.  Six months.  Six months he couldn't find a "Good job"?  So after six months of unemployment, I was back washing dishes at that same restaurant I had left.  For two weeks.  Then they promoted me to backup cook, and then I became a line cook.  I cooked for six years.  After six years, I got fed up with feeding other people and moved on to Sales.  Sales of building materials.

Now I'm a data entry person in receiving goods.  I check the stuff that come into our store, make sure that what we order is what we get.

I'm 41 now.  It's been couple decades since I washed dishes, you maggot.

Dishwashing then cooking.  9 years in the restaurant business.

Army.  2-1/2 years.

Sales & Data Entry.  Roughly 1998 till current date, same job.

I've worked for three institutions, and or business.  Some of you have worked more than 4-6 in the same period.  I've had a more stable job position. Mostly because I got noticed as a dedicated, hard working, anal retentive, I can get the job done, and you can't, sort of guy.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Yell, that statement is simply not true. Sometimes I think republicans are either living in a dream world or are just complete snobs.

We all know the world isnt fair, but you don't need to take it to the letter huh? Imo any government program having to do with education is a good step, especially when they favour the poor. Scholarships and other opportunities given to those who earn them is awesome right?

Wouldn't it be better to watch all the blacks and latinos fighting for scholarships rather than drugs or food? And don't worry' there will still be plenty left to dig your ditches and flip your burgers.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

What scholarships? No, extending welfare for students ain't cool.  I assume that's what you meant, since Pell Grants and FASA aren't there for job training.  This snob put himself through "night" school on a credit card -- I say "night" school since I went to class then to my graveyard shift.  And even at 12% interest I got a better deal than my "subsidized" FASA loans because I could discharge my card in bankruptcy if it ever came to that; student loans are forever.  If you can get them, since they were nationalized, private lenders don't bother and the government is somehow a bigger shylock than Citicorp.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

I lived in my car when I paid for private college.

I also worked full time.

You want to bitch about unfairness get behind me in line and shut up til I bitch,

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

15 (edited by The Yell 10-Sep-2012 23:44:58)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

I blame both Einstein and Key

you guys are vets of the greatest army in the world

you could be paid in gold on your choice 4 continents to shoot miners who try to unionize

yet you'd rather bitch


---WHATEVER, if Clinton had ordered you to, you'd have saluted and photographed yourself posing over corpses

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Chris I am disabled from my service time. No merc group will take me sad

Besides Ghost Recon shows mercs are gunbait for SOCCOM:

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

17 (edited by The Yell 11-Sep-2012 00:08:25)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

sad

if Key comes after me I'll hire you

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

So why are you bitching about measures that could have helped you had they existed? It's beyond me tongue

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Because they are wrong, destructive, and wrong.

I was able to pull myself from poverty/homeless to Middle Class.

I am a politician, even if I have all but lost this campaign. I am a future student, once again on my own dime.

My children will far better educations that I got.... with Conservative teachers at a private school. (When I have some again). I will also teach them things including ethics, morality, Christianity, business, politics, history, math and science.

This is what pushing yourself and your family means!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Because they don't leave it to the individual to improve themselves. I am better for having done night school and worked 50 hours a week at the same time.  Especially since I failed grad school before that.

Because they are inflationary. Ever wonder WHY it costs about 30 times as much to get stitches as it did in 1960? Here's a hint-- the government promise that no matter what, they'll pay to have that service available for you....should not comfort you....

Because the high cost and failure of the client-base (formerly, "citizens")  to wean itself off the federal tit, calls for responsible reform.

"responsible", because it refuses to end the cycle of dependency...

and "reform", because it cuts projected cost increases.  And it does that by destroying competition, innovation and experimentation. 

The welfare service goes from being a safety net, to a monopoly.  No other halfass volunteer private sector startup will be allowed to continue, or begin, to "steal resources" away from the monopoly.

The fact that service sucks, that costs are trimmed by denying people any alternative but government service, and then denying them government service, is just too damn bad.  This is reform! And ending the service is irresponsible and cruel!

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

On this subject, I would like to add my .02 cents. Sorry for the long read.

I am 25 years old and unemployed, my wife is 22, and we have a 2 year old daughter. My wife works at Macy's for 8.00/hr about 20 hours per week. She picks up any shift she can, but rarely gets more than 30 hours a week.

I am an ASE certified Master Automotive Technician. I started an auto repair shop in 2009 called Unlimited AutoCare, LLC and worked my ass off 7 days a week until June of this year. I started the shop with a credit card and a 10,000 dollar loan from my father because the SBA and other organizations would not even look at my application.

The shop easily surpassed all of my expectations. We did 4 times the sales that I had projected in the first year and even more the 2nd year. I had 4 employees and the expectation that our volume would continue to grow. We had superior customer service, a beautiful lobby, highly trained professional staff, and a happy customer base of about 1,100 customers. Well all of that costs money, over 25,000 per month on average. The taxes, licenses, and fees were INSANE. It was so unfair it was mind blowing.

January of this year, we did 4,000 in sales... I have no idea why... Business picked back up in Feb.

Unfortunately, with my expenses the way they were I could not recover from a 20,000 hole. I am now in bankruptcy...

Obviously, I can look back and see everything I did wrong. It was always difficult to save money, not because it was spent on expansion or luxury, but because all of the expenses were necessary. If I had started with a loan and a financial foundation, I would still be in business today.

I resisted assistance programs for 3 full months but the quality of life was terrible. We were not eating, could barely pay for gas to get my wife to work, lost our phones (we now use VOIP for free with talkatone/google voice), it has been a nightmare.

For the last week I have been on SNAP assistance and my daughter is on Medicaid. I will never look at these services the same way after I have been in the situation I am in now. I lost my home, lost my business, lost everything. My family and I are living with my in-law's.

I am thankful for these assistance services, and I can imagine that there are others like myself who have been in this situation.

The point I am trying to make is that without the availability of a program like SNAP or Medicaid, there would be no limit to how far people could fall. I would fight hard to preserve the availability of SNAP and Medicaid because I have seen that anybody can fall...

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

AnarchyAngel I shall a specific reply thread to you.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Government assistance is not a bad thing. It's the dependence upon the programs and refusal to better yourself and get off of them that is the biggest issue.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Oh, and AnarchyAngel, if you're ASE certified and have experience, you should be able to find work. If not, I would relocate. The Midwest has numerous positions available to you and a low cost of living.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: A conversation with Key: Why your ideas are a failure.

Einstein, education does not = middle or upper class living.  I have an idiot friend, and I do call him an idiot, mostly not to his face because he means well.  But he's still an idiot.  That has done nothing but go to schools and college since he got out of highschool.  And he's damn near the same age as me.  Doesn't matter what he learns, if he doesn't have the BALLS to actually get out of school to GO find a job.  And he's worked in seven different fields, that he got "bored" in.  And after each job he went back to go learn about more stuff.  He uses bankruptcy like it was candy. A dime a dozen.  He REALLY knows how to use bankruptcy laws to his own advantage, and in that regard he's almost a genius.  But on everything else he's an idiot.

He's also one of those people I took a bet on, when he first got married.  I bet $20.00 to the day when he'd get divorced.  I told my other friends he'd be married for exactly one year.  I won the bet.  He had the divorce papers fully signed by his marriage date.  Unreal.  That's how good I am at reading people, places, and objects.

Also, I am republican, but I didn't vote a republican into office.  I voted for Obama.   Come this election, i'm going to vote for Obama again, and not Romney.  Do you know why?  Because four years isn't enough time to get anything done.  You have to do the "Wait and see" approach to plans that may take a decade to come to fruition.  But those plans won't come to fruition if the new guy comes into office and changes gears midway through the original plan.  That's like your steering away from the cliff, and the guy in the passenger seat wants to open the driver side door, push out the driver, all the while still driving back towards the cliff when your trying to get a handle on the wheel.  Just doesn't work out, and makes things worse and not better.

As long as people get government assistance, that means the people will pay for products with government money.  That does not mean that corporate america will hire.  They just see some guy wish money paying for their product and go, "Hey we don't have to hire people, the government just hands them money to pay for our product".  Government assistance was only meant for TEMPORARY purchases of goods to keep onself afloat in a bad economy.  Not, "Taxpayers will have to pay for people not looking for jobs anymore."  To me that's complete lazyness on most peoples parts.  It's bad for the people, it's bad for business, and it's bad for the governmant, all in the long run.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.