26 (edited by xeno syndicated 30-Aug-2012 10:38:07)

Re: How to play SS

The reasons players play SS vary widely.  Here are some of the benign reasons:

On occasion, players concerned with ethics and honor have found that when contributing to the fam, their GCs and resources have often been used towards dishonorable ends.  Their solution to this ethical conundrum is to play SS.  It puts them in a position whereby they can choose whether or not to support a fam's activities.

When playing with new players that the SS player does not know, they might wait and see whether or not the fam is going to act honorably or dishonorably before supporting it.  Sometimes the SS player can utilize the political leverage that his or her GCs or resources provides so as to influence the fam towards conducting themselves more honorably.

Also, ethics aside, the SS player might go SS for practical reasons.  For instance, the fam might be led by a bad leader who misuses or wastes resources, or there might be an incapable attacker who often blows his or her fleet.  The SS player can use his GCs and resources to leverage a haphazard attacker into listening to advice about how to conduct their activities more effectively or how a fam leader could be more effective in their decision making.

Sometimes an SS player plays SS simply because he or she wants to prove their capability in playing the SS strategy, or to show that the SS strategy is effective and thus a legitimate alternative to the fambank or teams family structures. 

The SS player might be simply a fan of SS strategy in general, and simply wants to prove the effectiveness of the SS strategy by getting larger (more planets, more fleet, more infrastructure, etc.) than other players in the fam who might be using the fam bank or teams systems.

Also, the SS player may simply like the challenge of playing SS; they might simply enjoy the complexity involved in process of managing an SS economy.

The common thread of the motivations of the SS player is simply that they feel they can be more effective as an SS player rather than in a team or participating in the fam bank, and, therefore, they feel they can be more beneficial to the fam whole ultimately by playing SS.

Aside from these more or less benign reasons, there are other, less benign reasons, including having an illegal alliance with other fams or players, or playing SS for the purpose of conducting illegal market activity in support of another fam or player. These are rare occurrences, and, when they do occur, mods tend to get a hold of the situation rather quickly.

For the most part, the reasons players have in playing SS are benign.  There is no reason to suspect an SS player has ill-intentions simply because they want to play SS.

Now that we know how the different types of SS economies work and why players play SS, we can understand how to incorporate the SS player into the fam so there is a mutually beneficial relationship between the SS player and the fam.

27 (edited by xeno syndicated 31-Aug-2012 09:30:09)

Re: How to play SS

Although for the most part SS players are benign, the old adage 'one bad apple spoils the bunch' seems to apply, for there is a widespread preconception out there that there are many bad apples among SS players. 

In joining a family one time and after declaring that I wanted to play SS, I had to justify my strategy to the fam.  One player was very leery of having an SS player in the fam:

"Most SS players in my experience have been selfish players who take up 'core space' and inflate the family's NW but never contribute much during wars"  - Nox

There is a legitimate concern in this statement that needs to be addressed.  It is true that SS players do take up planets.  But does this force a fam to explore farther out than they would with a fam bank player in their stead?  No.  Their fam bank member would take as many planets in their core as any other player, SS or otherwise.  Therefore, this concern is not about "core space".  There is another reason fams complain about this.  What is the real concern here?

The real concern that the SS player who is 'taking up core space' like everybody else doesn't seem to be contributing like everybody else.  The fam is looking at all the SS player's planets and reading through fam news and seeing no transfers of funds or resources to other members and thinking that if only the SS player would contribute their main attacker's fleet or their GC or resource income would be so much bigger! Why can't the SS player just use fam bank lik everybody else? 

The SS player, especially a successful SS player with a large planet count and fleet or op size, is a constant reminder that the fam doesn't have access to the SS's income.  This makes them seem 'selfish'.  It is especially apparent when other players in the fam believe they desperately need the GCs or resources for some reason, for instance when wars are about to start and they need to jump their oppers / attackers, or when their attackers have blown their fleets, or when their bankers have been opped and need to jump their agents or wizards.

The question is, then, why do some SS players not tend to contribute when, from the fam's perspective, it seems critical for them to do so?  Well, there are many reasons.  Sometimes it could be that the SS player doesn't agree with the action the fam is about to take for practical or ethical reasons.  It could be that while the fam members think they are experiencing an emergency they in fact aren't, and only the SS can see this.  Think they need the SS player's support and need it now, but the SS player sees the situation differently and doesn't agree that their support is necessary.   Sometimes the SS does not support the fam for ethical reasons, for instance when the fam might be jumping their main attacker's fleet to war a far too small a fam. It could be that perhaps the SS player is just too honorable for what is an inherently dishonorable fam, and, due to having seen the fam arranging illegal alliances, unofficial naps, or seen the fam multi-ing, farming or vulturing or conducting other unethical activity, the SS player doesn't feel ethically justified in contributing to that fam. 

Other times, it is the fam is wrong to expect support in the first place.  When the fam is at peace and there isn't any pressing matter that the SS player needs to support, the fam might still think for some reason they should use the SS player's GCs and resources.  This is a mistake.  When the fam is at peace, they have no right to the SS player's resources.  The SS player, especially the MESS player, who is putting a lot of effort into calculating how to reinvest ALL of their GC / resources so as to attain maximum growth, cannot be expected to mess up their planning to support the fam when there is no pressing need for them to do so.

Instead, during peacetime, a mutually beneficial exchange needs to occur between the fam and the SS player.  This is usually planets: the SS player will need more planets and would gladly support a fam if by doing so the SS player will get more of them.  This might involve having planets explored for the SS player for a price, or the SS player funding an attacker in exchange for planets.  Note that if the SS player's planets aren't over built that much and the SS player is happy with the number of planets currently have, there may be nothing the fam can offer in exchange for the SS player's GCs or resources.  In this situation, the fam needs to simply come to the understanding that at this time their SS player doesn't need planets and they have no right to expect any of the SS player's GC or resources.  They should realize that this isn't selfishness because the SS player is not participating in the fam bank.

The fam needs to understand that the SS player's support, for instance in ops, fleet, GCs or resources, etc. will come at a price.  As the SS player is not participating in the fam bank system, everything they spend in support of the fam is coming from that player's OWN production and nobody else's.  A fam needs to realize that the very presence of an SS player who has a high attack bonus acts as a deterrent to would-be planet-nabbers, and that a little thank you from time to time in the form of GC or resource support FROM the fam is warranted simply for the SS player maintaining their fleet and protecting their core. 

Yes, that's right.  A fam needs to realize that instead of taking up core space an SS player with high attack bonus is providing a net benefit to the fam simply by their presence in or around the core, and that for this benefit that the fam receives, the SS player deserves compensation from the fam.  Yes, there is a fat-chance of this ever happening, but it is true that the SS player is actually owed something from the fam rather than the fam being owed anything from the SS player.

Think about it: fleet count, agents, wizards, sending bombing runs and fig runs, or sending retakes or even large-scale attacks all cost GC and resources.  None of this comes free, and yet it is my experience that the fam expects it for free.  Fams must come to terms with the fact that the SS player, because they are not participating in the fam bank, needs compensation for such activities.

Bankers who benefit from the protection of an SS player with a high attack rating and large fleet in their systems, might toss the SS player a little thank you once in a while for their protection.  Ops requested of an SS player should be compensated for.  The cost of sending fleets should be paid for by the fam.  Such is only showing respect that your SS player probably deserves but all to often never gets. 

If treated with respect, if understood as being a benefit to the fam and being compensated for providing that benefit, perhaps fams would have a better relationship with their SS player.  If fams are to expect further support from the SS player, they better pay the first time their SS player supports them, or they might not be able to count on it later.

The best thing a fam can do is nab some other empires' planet and pass them to your SS player; then fams might start receiving the support they want. 

Although contrary to common sentiment, SS players are NOT selfish, don't just take up 'core space' or a 'player spot'.  Actually, they probably contribute more to the fam than they realize and if they don't it is probably because their contributions in the past have gone unrecognized by the fam, and, from MY point of view that qualifies as sufficient anti-ethical behavior for the SS player to cease supporting such a fam.  In my experience, SS players contribute far more than the fam tends to contribute to them, and that is a crying shame. 

Ultimately, if you really think about it, playing SS is a thankless job, because when the benefits the SS player provides are invisible they ALWAYS go unrewarded, and even when the benefits are clear to the fam, they all to often also go unrewarded.

I wonder is it the SS player who is more selfish or is it the fam?  I wonder, maybe bad apples aren't exclusive to the SS crowd?

In ending, I would provide a counterpoint to Nox's quote above as follows:

Most fam bank players in my experience have been selfish, unethical players who take a fam's GC and resources waste by saving it, misuse in poor investing on market or blown fleets, or tasteless wars against far too small fams, vulturing, farming, etc., and don't often deserve an ethical SS's support.  When they aren't unethical, they often miss an opportunity for greatness when an SS player joins their team and they don't understand that the SS player's support doesn't come free.  They need to buy it.

In other words, if you want your SS player's GC and resources, go get him some planets from a worthy adversary.

Re: How to play SS

Usually SS players survive under the protection of the fam

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: How to play SS

This thread has nothing to do with SS strategies. All you do is tell stories and explain situations that never happened to try and convince people SS is actually an addition to any family.

Explain actual strategies or show real results that you or any other SS player accomplished instead of these half assed bullshit anecdotes.

Re: How to play SS

i won SD with 2,1 bill nw and 2k+ planets as a SS tongue

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: How to play SS

well.... how did you do it? wink

Re: How to play SS

Noir starting to sound like flint yikes

Re: How to play SS

market was good to me!

LORD HELP OREGON

34 (edited by xeno syndicated 31-Aug-2012 18:15:24)

Re: How to play SS

> Noir wrote:

> Usually SS players survive under the protection of the fam


Just as often it is the fam that survives under the protection of the SS.

Case in point.  One round, SS-ing with partaxians, my low-ranked fam was attacked by top 5 fam.  I was armed to the hilt with wizards, which I was maintaining with 80% of my economy on a mere 50 planets.  In spite of the low planet count, I was upkeeping probably the largest amount of wizards in the galaxy, and so I could easily hypno the top 5 fam's pop banker without fail 2 times in response to their attacks.  I sent a message that I would continue to op their pop as long as their attacks continued.  Guess what?  There were no more attacks from that top 5 fam.

In addition, as a side note, octarine 'coincidentally' happened to spike after my wiz op attacks and I made an absolute killing (relatively speaking) on the market selling my octarine.

Meanwhile, my fam was frantic, expecting to get farmed, sending messages to me bankers asking for aid to jump their ground for defense and getting mad when I wouldn't send them anything.  1. I couldn't send them anything because my economy was maintaining a ridiculous  amount of wizards and 2. the fam didn't understand that even if they were to jump their bankers ground for defenses it would be pointless against a fam so much larger, and 3. they didn't understand that I had already solved the problem and there was no need for them to worry.

Did they pay to upkeep my wizards which was the only thing keeping them alive?  Nope.  They didn't even pay for the ops.  Nope.  Should they have?  Yes.  And yet from their perspective, thinking they were facing and emergency requiring my GC and resource support, they would have thought it absurd for ME to ask THEM for any compensation for saving them.

Re: How to play SS

why did u have so manny wizzys then? cuz usually ss guys keep quite low on fleet untill nessesary, to maximize your rc usage, production, upkeep reduction etc etc.

Colorado: even in the 11/01 war i made more hits.
Colorado: 447 blow jobs.
Big Gary:  Only a fool cannot admit when he's wrong...
AW:    i love rim jobs
RisingDown: I know you do

Re: How to play SS

Because it never happened?

Re: How to play SS

Paashaas, Noir won it as an SS because it was a round of SDSS and EVERYBODY was SS X(

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: How to play SS

it wasnt arby, it was 4 man fams tongue but my fam was useless!

LORD HELP OREGON

39 (edited by xeno syndicated 31-Aug-2012 19:02:44)

Re: How to play SS

> Paininside wrote:

> why did u have so manny wizzys then? cuz usually ss guys keep quite low on fleet untill nessesary, to maximize your rc usage, production, upkeep reduction etc etc.

Why?  Well, since my fam wasn't getting me any planets, and since I was partaxian, I had nothing better to spend my GCs and resources on.  It was like this: the fam that round just didn't get it.  They didn't see it was their responsibility to provide me with planets when I asked for them in exchange for my support.  If they had attacked and nabbed planets and passed them to me, I would have provided GC and resources to them in exchange.  They never did.

It happens all the time.  SS players give up on their fams all the time for various reasons, usually for being gutless and never attacking anyone and thus never being able to get planets from them. 

Understand that the SS requires more planets when their planets reach a certain OB percentage.  At this point, the SS needs more planets and is in a position to pay handsomely for them.  When this happens, the fam needs to step up attacks and nab some systems, secure them with ports, and pass them to their SS. The fam can expect ample compensation.  If they don't do this, the SS will just sit on a huge amount of fleet, and just sit out the round waiting, waiting, waiting, for their fam to grow a pair.

When the SS player really gives up on their fam, they, in contempt of their fam's spinelessness, will actually send out expos for them, and, in a sinister insult to the fam, actually give away planets away to them for free, lol.  Or they might just plain delete, retire in disgust at what a boring waste of time IC has become.

This game is not called Imperial PNAP; it is NOT Imperial Infrawhoring; it is NOT called Imperial Popularity Contest; it is NOT called Imperial Mod Ego Trip Fest; it is NOT called Imperial Farmer's Slaughterhouse; it is NOT called Imperial Vultur-ing or Imperial Multi-ing or Imperial Illegal Alliance making.

It is called Imperial CONFLICT.

Playing SS is a response to the degradation of this game that we have witnessed over the years; it is an attempt to SAVE this game and restore it to what it is supposed to be...

Imperial CONFLICT

I would congratulate any player who goes SS in the way I describe above and FORCE their fam to grow a pair. 

I would ask SS players out there NOT to support their fams unless they grow a pair and start nabbing planets from worthy adversaries and passing YOU planets as compensation for your support.

Help SAVE this game and restore it to what it once was.  In a mark of solidarity, I would invite all SS players to adopt the same avatar as the one I am now using.

See my new signature.

Re: How to play SS

While I find the breakdown into 5 subclasses of self sufficent players a bit artificial, it is nevertheless interesting.

It would be even more interesting if other players would rather post constructive additions than starting the usual one-line comments of disapproval.

The demise of the self sufficient playing style, or as I rather would call it the ability to play as a stand-alone, came with the introduction of morale. What initially was meant as a game mechanic against massfarming much weaker players, brought instead the specialization of the banker/attacker and made things worse than before.

Without morale or with HC-rules, any 2 good stand alone players would be more than a match for a banker/attacker pair.

Due to the high specialization and the to and fro of resources and planets you have losses. Due to the high specialization to fit one role, you are also caught into this role regardless of the game flow.

As a stand alone player you are a generalist but you do specialize! With a keen awareness of the different stages in a round, you adapt to the game flow. Obviously you have some losses because your race design, building setup and race boni often don't add up (or rather multiply) like for a specialized player but without transfer losses and adapting to the game flow you can make up with it.

And a bunch of stand alone players are NOT forced to always play completly on their own in an almost autistic way. In times of need you CAN band together and decide who boosts wizards, who fighters, ground etc. As a matter of fact that was already normal in the betas.

Nevertheless it's a different approach to the game. A stand alone player wants to play all aspects of the game, wants to do the tricky decisions when to switch according to the flow of the game or to react to a specific situation (like a big war).

For me that was always more fun than following strict orders and a very limited style of how to play the game. Probably one of the reasons of the early raids nowadays: bored attackers... no wonder.

If IC gets rid of morale, the stand alone players would be back and kicking for sure.

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: How to play SS

Thanks for the constructive reply, Altruist.  Yes.  We are sort of handicapped by current rules governing morale.  This could be rectified by having SS tag (see idea thread).  Simply having morale bonus given to SS players might be warranted.

Re: How to play SS

itll be used for the fams main attacker if hes runnin low on morale, so no use to make an ss tag.

Colorado: even in the 11/01 war i made more hits.
Colorado: 447 blow jobs.
Big Gary:  Only a fool cannot admit when he's wrong...
AW:    i love rim jobs
RisingDown: I know you do

Re: How to play SS

> Paininside wrote:

> itll be used for the fams main attacker if hes runnin low on morale, so no use to make an ss tag.

If it is a permanent tag that cannot be removed once given, and if being tag SS cuts the SS player off from recieving or sending aid, I don't think it can be abused in that way.

Re: How to play SS

good point, but then u should request such tag at the mods from before start?
could work.

Colorado: even in the 11/01 war i made more hits.
Colorado: 447 blow jobs.
Big Gary:  Only a fool cannot admit when he's wrong...
AW:    i love rim jobs
RisingDown: I know you do

Re: How to play SS

I have SS'd this Pw round, but an SS tag isn't a very good idea.

Yes, you'll have more morale issues when attacking as SS player. But that's the point of having a variety of roles in one family. SS'ing has pros and cons. Compared to a well oiled family, there should always be more cons. Because they have made their family more efficient through dividing roles and focussing on what they do best (even if this sometimes means crap)

I'd even like to add the following:

You have 12 players each in 2 families. 100 planet avg. 12 SS players having 100 each in the one family. The other having 8 players with 125 and 4 with 50 planets. When in a war, probably the second family will win, because of effiency. But not because of morale. Both families should have a similar amount of morale, since the bankers in the second family spend more than avg and the attackers less.

If you suggest this kind of SS tag, you might as well add a boosted research bonus for these players, give them an increased attack and so on.. until you make it better to SS than to play together.

Bad idea. Working together should be stimulated in this game and thus SS players shouldn't receive additional help.

46 (edited by ~_SpaWn_~ 24-Nov-2012 14:26:23)

Re: How to play SS

Building    Owned    %
Laser     3283     1%     Demolish all
Mining facility     135559     38%     Demolish all (Iron mined     +181542)
Research center     16858     5%     Demolish all (Construction       33% cheaper     28%     increased resources )
Hydroponic farm     9353     3%     Demolish all
Refinement station     81505     23%     Demolish all (Endurium produced +115608)
Occult center     3872     1%     Demolish all
Tax office     21811     6%     Demolish all
Living Quarter     505     0%     Demolish all
Cash factory     83693     23%     Demolish all (Cash Income     +1209500 Units     -823984 Buildings -356439)

Total    356439    100 %


Population growth: -30%
Income: 40%
Attack: 40%
Magic: -30%
   
Spells
Space Amazement

    Operations
Place Nukes
Destroy Units
Terminate Scientists
Sabotage Portal
Planetary Infrastructure

Specials
Droid
Tax Office

Awesomeness smile facing the famsupport + strong core defensive actions done ^^

~Liever staand sterven dan levend kruipen!~

Re: How to play SS

> 0rion wrote:

> I have SS'd this Pw round, but an SS tag isn't a very good idea.

Yes, you'll have more morale issues when attacking as SS player. But that's the point of having a variety of roles in one family. SS'ing has pros and cons. Compared to a well oiled family, there should always be more cons. Because they have made their family more efficient through dividing roles and focussing on what they do best (even if this sometimes means crap)

I'd even like to add the following:

You have 12 players each in 2 families. 100 planet avg. 12 SS players having 100 each in the one family. The other having 8 players with 125 and 4 with 50 planets. When in a war, probably the second family will win, because of effiency. But not because of morale. Both families should have a similar amount of morale, since the bankers in the second family spend more than avg and the attackers less.

If you suggest this kind of SS tag, you might as well add a boosted research bonus for these players, give them an increased attack and so on.. until you make it better to SS than to play together.

Bad idea. Working together should be stimulated in this game and thus SS players shouldn't receive additional help.





i came here to read up on ss'ing as i usually don't do it, but all that happened is i got madder as i read.  i agree with the last sentence here helping SS players in any way is the wrong direction to move.  this is a  game centered around FAMILIES not individuals, i do not see a problem with things like the SDSS rounds and so forth, but when i see a member in my family say they want to go SS, i do my best to talk them out of it. if they refuse i politly ask them to leave, if that is refused i usually kill them off. 

ok now i know im going to be critisized for that!  but the way i see it is these players do not contribute to the family, ask for stuff; ocassionally depending on the SS, some ask for more some ask for less.  in reality all they do is waste a spot for someone willing to work with the team instead of agenst it.  there science has to be all over for them to work properly or rely heavily on the market or both.  there planets are a hodgepodge of crap and not streamlined. 

bottom line is they are a waste of space and planets, kill them off if they refuse to leave and get a random in who will cooperate with the family unit!

Important principles may, and must, be inflexible.
Abraham Lincoln

48 (edited by Altruist 07-Oct-2013 20:02:18)

Re: How to play SS

> GeneralSkulls wrote:
> this is a  game centered around FAMILIES not individuals

Well, as a matter of fact, while IC gave the opportunity to play as a team/family from the very beginning, it wasn't done so by the players right from the start but was developed over many rounds. Until the introduction of morale, everybody had the pleasure to play the full game of stars: economy AND war... and they still felt like a team.

As I have pointed out in several other threads, the high specialization of today of mainly banker/attacker was NOT intended, rather the other way around: morale was introduced to make farming more difficult. To get around morale, players invented the banker/attacker team. So one could view the attacker/banker roles a not intended loophole in the game.

By now everybody is used so much to this style of playing that the remaining players can't imagine a different style of play.... while at the same time yell round after round after round about farming and the lack of fun.

Sigh.

> GeneralSkulls wrote:
> is waste a spot for someone willing to work with the team instead of agenst it

Grrr, once there used to be a consensus within the IC-community that everybody had the right and freedom to play IC how he or she saw fit with the only strict rule that family treaties with other families had to be followed.

edit:correcting bad typo

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: How to play SS

I never kill an SS player unless they bring trouble.

Just make it known that for their protection, in times of need I get first dibs on their resources, not the market. If they cannot uphold that bargain, I make it very clear I cannot guarantee their safety. Albeit from the galaxy or the own fam they are in.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

50 (edited by Timmyville 27-Nov-2012 17:35:41)

Re: How to play SS

> Xeno wrote:

> > Paininside wrote:

> why did u have so manny wizzys then? cuz usually ss guys keep quite low on fleet untill nessesary, to maximize your rc usage, production, upkeep reduction etc etc.

Why?  Well, since my fam wasn't getting me any planets, and since I was partaxian, I had nothing better to spend my GCs and resources on.  It was like this: the fam that round just didn't get it.  They didn't see it was their responsibility to provide me with planets when I asked for them in exchange for my support.  If they had attacked and nabbed planets and passed them to me, I would have provided GC and resources to them in exchange.  They never did.




Let's be frank. You're a SS. If you're an SS, you don't get passed planets. Any planets that are acquired by a fam are MUCH better served going back into the family economy, instead of to somebody who is only (by definition) going to use them for himself.

Problems
1) Bankers use a 50 (or 60%) econ race bonus, and probably a 50% RC bonus as well. A fully researched banker makes upwards of 21-25 GC per CF (not including TOs). What is yours?

2) Full-Time resourcers can make use of -30% income and use that elsewhere...like in attack bonus or in ops, or whatever. They also don't have to worry about producing cash, so their research can be focused on resources

3) Full-Time attackers can maintain extremely low planet counts, and extremely high research levels. So even if they jump to 10-20-30-40 million NW, they can maintain a very healthy military bonus, and maintain very healthy morale losses.



Conclusion: The problem with SS players is that they are not good at ANYTHING. They are mediocre at everything, and as Noir said, they require the protection of a family. Xeno talks about his horrible families not passing him planets. That's the deal. That's what SS is. If I have a choice between passing a planet to a family player (where I will see the income and be able to reinvest it throughout the round), or to a SS player (where he will use it to fund his unnecessarily ridiculous fleet), the choice will be the same EVERY TIME.

Furthermore, in answer to the question "Who's more selfish, the family or the SS player", the family consists of 12 (or whatever) people who are all trying to grow each other as efficiently as possible. The SS player consists of one person trying to grow himself inefficiently, usually maintaining enormous fleets because "it's fun to have big fleets".

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrd