Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Ok so I am here to revisit without the trolling I hope.


The Einstein jump is about Flexibility. A Pop rusher at BoR can produce a lot of cash on day 3 and up.

The difference is less cash in the first two days.

In past work studying planet lists (back when players would conmonly have hundreds of planets and I was asked to help with Flint Jumps) I determined average planet size to be just over 220. Thus all math is based upon the assumption of an average size of 220.


Now the pop max is 40 times size and pop starts at planet size. A 50% bonus player gets 206% (essentially double) every ten ticks.

So it takes 51 ticks from taking planets for population on a pop rusher to fill and since transports take 12 ticks this pushes max pop to tick 63.

A 220 sized planet under the influence of 10 to's (some will prefer 8, I like 10) makes (((8800 / 30) * 1.5 [Race bonus]) *(1 + ( (10 / 11 [hidden building penalty])* 2))

This is 1240 gc a tick per planet.

Normally in cf terms this is 105 cf's for a Rev banker (accounting for bldg upkeep).

Cost for each planet however is 10,000 gc, 10 iron, 5 endu per explorer and something like 1800 per exploration and attack.

Net cost is therefore equivalent to 80 cf's in cash, 1 cf in iron, and 5 cf's in endu.

The one thing most families have plenty of is cash and the least is endu.


This plays into that with a calculation that a few less CF's at BoR means more income and more flexibility on day 3.

The plan also allowed usage of all remaining endu and then some as well by leaving some planets for cf builders to build upon with the spare endu. The fact they to would gain population (albiet slower) from BoR also played into the math.

In truth our costs in endu was 170 endu and this gained us 22 planets at BoR.



Prices dropped earlier than I predicted for iron and endu, but the key was flexibility. The price dropped so low on iron we were about to jump me first in TO's then in LQ's... but I was opped one tick before the jump and three ticks before my wizzies were in.

The minor jump (cost wise) would have doubled my population that day and gotten me a 40% TO balance which would have resulted in an income of 1564 per planet (20 upkeep) from 1240. While not impressive this is just the start as from then on we could have kept doubling the income every 10 ticks.

Compare this to a CF player who takes 10.5 ticks to pay for a new cf and we get near parity. Now I concede a player who is online a lot can make a new cf (equivalent) every 9 ticks but they also have room issues.

Room is another issue. At first I require no infra.

Take me and a cf player on day 3 where he explorers 20 planets to my 19. We will also assume he has 4 additional planets fully built for 1130 cf's(which mind you is a heck of a lot of endu at BoR).

I am earning 23560 a tick and he is earning 13334, but there was a period of time where I was earning far less and we will assume he has a bit of savings also.

We jump.

He doubles his cf's and is earning 26,668 a tick. My jump requires 380 LQ's and To's to his 1130 cf's.

I am now earning 29716 now.

Next jump he needs 2260 Cf's to double and I need 760 LQ/TO's to double

So far on his new 20 planets he has made 3390 Cf's or 169.5 per planet to my 60 per planet.

His next jump puts him into OverBuild (OB) and mine just gets me to a little more than half built. Since this started at tick 63 we are now at tick 83 and he needs more planets to keep costs down while I could use more planets to hold TO's and dramatically allow for more profits on my origional 19 planets

Day 4 is not even over and I not only out earn him, I have far more space than him and he is into OB or more planets.


This ofc is for example. The smart (aka the not Ryan's out there who will not deny the Flint Jump for purposes of smiting Flint) will realize this Jump is about flexibility.

In the future I expect families to routinely hand a pop banker 12 to 32 planets at BoR (32 being a good PW number).







Now to explain what went wrong in our version of the jump. I got opped. That and a banker who was way late for BoR start.


Some people seek to discredit me by looking at my race and disparaging my science choice. To me science is 'fungible' as in the difference of a 15 million income to a 16 million income is not enough for me to sacrifice flexibility with ops as support. One extra opper, in my opinion (especially one who knows what they are doing) makes a huge difference.



And yes.... a pure cf start may be more profitable... but it also may not. It requires precise knowledge of a random market (which is not possible). This plan just gives flexibility.


If Iron is high and endu is low: Make Cf's
If Iron is low and endu is high: Make LQ's
If Iron and Endu is low: Make all the income you can
If Iron and Endu is high: Work on resourcers.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

> Einstein wrote:

> Ok so I am here to revisit without the trolling I hope.


Failed.

It is a troll in itself, namely a post that takes way too long to say nothing useful at all.

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

3 (edited by Zidi 06-Aug-2012 05:54:02)

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Einstein.

Essentially, you cannot protect your population. Someone will op you everyone round. If your families start was putting you close to the top, you can be sure any of the other top families will op you.

Also, remember that a large majority of cf's are built on 50% science from tick 28....So that makes CF's far superior in my own opinion.

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Didn't read it but I can tell it failed

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

> Einstein wrote:

>
Now to explain what went wrong in our version of the jump. I got opped. That and a banker who was way late for BoR start.


Some people seek to discredit me by looking at my race and disparaging my science choice. To me science is 'fungible' as in the difference of a 15 million income to a 16 million income is not enough for me to sacrifice flexibility with ops as support. One extra opper, in my opinion (especially one who knows what they are doing) makes a huge difference.



And yes.... a pure cf start may be more profitable... but it also may not. It requires precise knowledge of a random market (which is not possible). This plan just gives flexibility.


If Iron is high and endu is low: Make Cf's
If Iron is low and endu is high: Make LQ's
If Iron and Endu is low: Make all the income you can
If Iron and Endu is high: Work on resourcers.


market isnt that random if u have played. Prices are quite the same after 1 or 1 and 1/2 days into the round. i believe u predicted that endu will stay high for 2 days or more? thats just fail. and sci doesnt only affect your income, it affects your jumps too, how much do u have to invest to get a decent jump later on?

if u are someone that knows what he is doing, go be an opper and leave the banking to someone u can teach!

and as Zidi said, everyone will op the shit out of u and suddenly u are the one the fam relying on holding on to tons of planets who makes crap for cash.

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

I predict 4 families will use this next round of PW. After the utter success they will have the next round of MW will see 10 fams trying it.

Then it will become required strategy much like the 8 TO's bor strategy was, like the Flint Jump was, and like the RC builder strategy is.


The thing is... you op someone down... they will get pissed. Retal is coming.

Generally only revenge or troll ops happen... and if I had followed family advice my pop would not have been opped that day (successfully).

The family that ops 4 or 5 top fams in the first week has never made it in the top 10 by EoR.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

I see alot of interesting points in this thread, but i also feel that that main point here is being missed.

The error here isnt in Flint pop numbers necisarily, but like Dragonsup and zidi pointed out, its simply the point that CF start is faster. This is mainly due to the faster reinvestment that you get with CFs.

Flint has been gone from the game for a few years and seems to have missed that such starts were actually attempted earlier. Its a good idea and all that, but its simply and sadly just not the best way the way the game is balanced at the moment.

For most of the real strategists in the game atm this is just evident my the last rounds, but it would also be proved through numbers if we bothered to write them up in excel.


A low OB CF bankers can transition so easily into popper later that you simply should not pay the penalty of slow growth early to facilitiate your later pop, that will be no problem anyways.

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Shortly in to keep me updated and as usual, i do agree with Noir but not all the way.
the mix in a fam makes it profitable with to-start and pure pop but only if the fam works like a team all the way (wich isnt the truth so often). But investing into cf.s for one banker with fast growth in planetcount is best way if the other bankers stay passive and gain income from little infra. If it then also is possible to give those poppers planets early (without infra) family will have huge amounts to spend on a few players to get them going fast.

Flag of Halland/Sweden
2004-05-24     Graduated from Virgo with flying colors!

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Well nandro that is a different story but yes i agree, the point is that if you just delay your poppers mayvbe 3-4 days more than what einstein is sugesting, its just much better than this boosting jump

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Yeh, i was planning on doing what einstein did 4-5 days into the round.

Of course, we had a little war which de-railed that a little bit...

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

POp in itself is better and more profitable, but it cannot be forced and hurried like this, it loses its profitability

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

Noir ur such a cash cow yikes

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

?

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

cash cow - eco whore

never mind

Re: The Einstein Jump revisited

i got it lee

peace and love brother!

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