1 (edited by Justinian I 08-Jun-2008 05:11:42)

Topic: Christians and Love

As a strict empiricist (all human knowledge derives from our senses, and non-experiential things in the human understanding like unicorns are explained by aggregates of sense experience that are rearranged by the human imagination, or are symbolic expressions that refer to experiential things using our abstract faculties like language and higher order thinking), I think of love as a chemical reaction that occurs when the favorable circumstances are present. Meaning, that when you are able to enjoy a pleasant conversation, are attracted to the person, and have consistent positive experiences with them etc (among other essential circumstances), then the formula for the love chemical reaction is present and there is love as an outcome. This reaction can also be reproduced with other people when the right circumstances for are present.

Christians on the other hand, I have observed, view love very differently. Keep in mind that I am referring to romantic love. I still don't quite understand it, but they seem to subscribe to "The One" theory. "The One" theory seems to assert that God designates your match sometime before you meet as part of his master plan for you, sets up the circumstances under which you will meet, and love will be present when your time comes to bond with that person. Of course, I find this theory ludicrous for various reasons. But some of them are:

1. A resulting consequence of this theory would mean that you can not love anyone else but your designated match. It does not seem to fit because we find that people can fall in love with more than one person in their lifetimes, as well as fall out of love.
2. It seems to eliminate free-will because of God setting you up to meet some day, and having a master plan which you are an actor in. Of course, a modification could be made to the theory, in that God still designates your true love, but it is up to you to find them. But this leads to another problem. Since God can not set you up to meet without contradicting free will, for all you know your true love or "the one" could be far from contact distance. This incites a question about the perfection and benevolence of God when he makes it so that only a few people in the world would likely be able to come in contact with their true love.
3. The theory contradicts every day experience when couples fall in and out of love, and then fall in love with someone else. When love lasts, we can also observe very practical adjustments like good communication - no indication of someone finding the true love that God designated for them.

Simply put, the chemical reaction theory simply makes more sense and fits empirical data much better than the popular one we see circulating about among Christians.

But then, maybe this theory is not essential to Christianity, but is an inessential but popular one among Christians. I want to know how you guys can defend this theory about romantic love, or if you have alternative ones that can viably compete with chemical reaction theory. As another option, maybe you do subscribe to chemical reaction theory and manage to fit that in with your Christian world view. Anyhow, I want to know your views and your defense of them.

2 (edited by windowsME 08-Jun-2008 06:06:07)

Re: Christians and Love

Quick Points - lots of christians believe in "the one" but i think that's ridiculous talk, we really do frequently treat it like we're looking for the last freaking unicorn.  Many of the powerful pastors (see matt chandler, by the way, if you're interested - powerful fellow, plenty of podcasts) in churches who are really doing it right, doing the right things, and truly affecting people the way the should also do not see it as it has been popularized among Christian youth.

I am a much firmer believer in the system (this is biblical, by the way, song of solomon) that God has designated within you a good amount of characteristics you need in a mate (nothing fancy there - some people work, some people don't) and that there are a good group of those people - I've managed to meet about 3 people I think I realistically could marry and be happy with.

As to "love is a chemical reaction" - you're looking at two very different things.

Attraction and "like" are chemical reactions, I firmly agree.  Love however is much more than a feeling - it's a verb or an action.  I sincerely doubt you always "like" your mate, your girlfriend, or your friends all the time, in fact, it's obviously ridiculous to believe such hogwash - it's affected as much by what you ate last night or what position you slept in as anything.  But love is a continued decision maintained by continued action.

So - a lot of christian youth do think as you suggest, and as a christian twenty-something, i tend to call them a bit naive, foolish, and understudied and have since I was about 14 tongue

Re: Christians and Love

"Christians on the other hand, I have observed, view love very differently"

i think that view is shared by more "groups"of people than christians; they didnt invent  it or something justi

but hten agian, i ddint read the whole of your post tongue

till the end of time..

Re: Christians and Love

I would like to start by saying that I don't believe in 'the one' theory and am probably closer to your 'chemical' theory. However you dissertation of 'the one' leaves some holes.

>>1. A resulting consequence of this theory would mean that you can not love anyone else but your designated match. It does not seem to fit because we find that people can fall in love with more than one person in their lifetimes, as well as fall out of love.<<

This is easy to get around by simply saying that the 'love' you felt for this person was not 'true love' and thus it ended because they were not 'the one.' You get to it later in that you are not 'set up' with your 'one true love' by god, but need to have faith that you will find them and that god has a plan for you, as he does for everyone.

>> 2. It seems to eliminate free-will because of God setting you up to meet some day, and having a master plan which you are an actor in. Of course, a modification could be made to the theory, in that God still designates your true love, but it is up to you to find them. But this leads to another problem. Since God can not set you up to meet without contradicting free will, for all you know your true love or "the one" could be far from contact distance. This incites a question about the perfection and benevolence of God when he makes it so that only a few people in the world would likely be able to come in contact with their true love.<<

As stated above, god gives you free-will to find the person, though he will help to make  circumstances favourable if you listen to him and his plan for you. You don't have to follow it, but obviously listening to the all powerful all knowing and all seeing creator of the universe will probably be a good thing. Obviously then he will make sure your love is either near you or you will have life paths that will cross at some point.

>> 3. The theory contradicts every day experience when couples fall in and out of love, and then fall in love with someone else. When love lasts, we can also observe very practical adjustments like good communication - no indication of someone finding the true love that God designated for them.<<

This is really the same point as 1 with maybe a little of 2 thrown in, though in different words. You can't make points against an argument then re-word them and think you have made more... you only have 2 points and they are easily sidestepped if one was so inclined by pointing out the over-all greatness of god and his master plans. We have free will, and as such we can like someone, but if we stop liking them then obviously they were not our one true love now were they... Or maybe we did something to deviate from the path we were meant to walk and that caused friction and thus a dissolving of the true love. No one said that god was going to ensure it worked out, just that it was possible to walk the path, and by having faith in him to help you through the difficult bits.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Christians and Love

Gooooooooooooooo winme!

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: Christians and Love

My opinion is

"The One" theory is wrong, but it's purposeful.

The chemical theory, although probably being correct, could be harmful if it was widespread. With the chemical theory it's hard to keep marriages stable, and as we know, the traditional family is the best environment to raise children.

Re: Christians and Love

Justinian I think you're a little confused on "the One" theory, or I've had it explained to me differently than you have had it explained to you.  It was explained to me, and I've always interpreted it thus, that the theory isn't that there is only one person in the world you'll ever love, you can feel love for anyone, but there is a single "perfect" love, a soul mate.  One person who makes you complete, the yin to your yang so to speak, a person who despite all their failings you would never leave them or do anything to intentionally harm them.  Now Christians throw God into the mix because it gives them hope that they can beat the 1 in 6 billion odds of finding said person, if God is planning it out surely the odds must be better than that.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

8 (edited by East 09-Jun-2008 07:57:21)

Re: Christians and Love

free will is accepted in most christian denominations (not the ones with the whole predestination), the christian god does not demand blind slavery, but love big_smile

as for "the one" I don't think that is actually a part of christian doctrine, there is no divine plan to give everyone a partner that is up to you; people only hope they meet "the one" because once they marry it's for as long as they live lol

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Re: Christians and Love

I think this theory of "The One" was invented by a well intentioned friend of someone whos' lover had left them, or someone who had become terminally depressed as a result being forever single, probably due to some kind of flaw like ugliness or stupidity.
This probably sounds harsh to you, perhaps even brutal, but before you judge me, before you make some form of assumtion regarding the state of my love life based on this simple statement, think about this:

When was the last time you used/heard used the "The One" theory? Was it when that girl had been dumped yet again by yet another bastard who was doinking her sister yet again? Was it when you were making your ugly/fat/stupid/disabled friend feel better about their eternal celibacy? Does this phrase ring a bell? "Hey, you are a lovely person, you are kind and caring, the right one is out there, you just have to find them"

See?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Christians and Love

"I think of love as a chemical reaction that occurs when the favorable circumstances are present. Meaning, that when you are able to enjoy a pleasant conversation, are attracted to the person, and have consistent positive experiences with them etc (among other essential circumstances), then the formula for the love chemical reaction is present and there is love as an outcome. This reaction can also be reproduced with other people when the right circumstances for are present.

Christians on the other hand, I have observed, view love very differently. Keep in mind that I am referring to romantic love. I still don't quite understand it, but they seem to subscribe to "The One" theory. "The One" theory seems to assert that God designates your match sometime before you meet as part of his master plan for you, sets up the circumstances under which you will meet, and love will be present when your time comes to bond with that person. Of course, I find this theory ludicrous for various reasons. But some of them are:"

i was raised catholic and went to a catholic school, and in that catholic school, through highschool, and in that catholic school, they taught your description of love, and not your description of christian love. you're like some kid in elementary school who knows very little about sex, but that doesnt keep him from talking about sex with his friends and making jokes about sex, but the things you say about sex are childish and show a lack of understanding of the basic principles of sex. except instead of sex, you're imature about religion and lack a basic understanding of the principles.

Re: Christians and Love

An ironic way to finish your post Avogadro, especially as your post shows a lack of understanding regarding the original post.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Christians and Love

i just wanted to compare sex to Christianity for kicks

Re: Christians and Love

I can't be bothered to read all of this, but anyway...

(I am a Catholic, for those of you who hadn't cottoned on.)
Since when has Christianity been pushy of "the one" theory? It seems to me to be a funny Americanism that those who think that they are madly in love want to beleive that this person is the one and only for them. Of course, it doesn't really work in practise, and you can't go around looking for just one person until you think you've found the one because you won't know unless you have different experiences. Maybe people find someone who they love perfectly and all seems exactly right between them and the ideal relationship is found, (in my view, that is,) and some will manage it and some won't and some will do it very quickly and others won't.
Someone made a very good point about being given the characteristics that work alongside someone else's to fall in love, and there will probably be a few people who people believe that they love. What I believe, though, is that there is someone who you may or may not meet who will provide the other half, (you being one half,) of a feeling that is the strongest love and this person will be your best match. I'm not talking about being destined for one particular person, but I do believe that God knows the type of thing that will happen, and has put lots of people here to see if it does...I'm losing touch with reality... Anyway, it's all a strange thing, and I haven't even started thinking about actual people and meeting and chance etc.

"The true office of a friend is to side with you when you are wrong; the world will side with you when you are right."
"It is not just a friend's help that helps us, but the knowledge that they will unconditionally do so."

Re: Christians and Love

how are things with you and loz, if i may be so bold to ask tongue

east wrote:people only hope they meet "the one" because once they marry it's for as long as they live lol

yup, that s prolly it smile

till the end of time..

Re: Christians and Love

My lover is "the one", the one to stop me from having to face my fear of being alone...

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Christians and Love

We're doing just fine, thankyou for asking Nemeara.


On certain levels, that's quite true, Fokker. Though there's alot more to it than that.

"The true office of a friend is to side with you when you are wrong; the world will side with you when you are right."
"It is not just a friend's help that helps us, but the knowledge that they will unconditionally do so."

Re: Christians and Love

I know, I'm just being intentionally glib.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."