@schniepel
Ukrainian army will "purge" the "rioters" aka the "russian army" in the eastern provinces. Russia will almost certainly react. So war it is.

Send them a letter to start elections asap, your planets are at stake.

If I was the Ukrainian gov, I would promise a federal state to the eastern most province and guarantee the Russian language in the constitution. The Russians would look the villain to everyone if they invaded, including many Russian speaking Ukrainians.

"No, but as the Ukraine "Goverment" now is sending troops to the east to beat down the pro russian protest, i bet there will something be happening soon."
oh, they won't!.... Dammit I'm fooled again. It will come as a complete surprise, just like the annexation of Crimea. Just at a time where I started  to trust the peace loving regime of Russia.

Cards did change somewhat for them tough. They cannot win a war with Ukraine, even if Ukraine looses militarily, which is almost a certainty.

"I dont know if and when.. but I will bet 100 planets that he wont do before the election in mai.
I bet another 100 planets that a pro russian candidate will win that election and the problem solves itself.
And i bet 200 planets that the "west" and maidan movement will have something to complain then.

there i see my planets going down:("
Did he invade something already? His bodyguard doesn't count...

I'm so glad my gov spend our tax money on great leader Obama, but then again, the responsibilities of my gov has no boundaries. It costs us 700.000€ directly. I'm also glad so many people in Brussels sacrificed their time freely in traffic jams like me or the ones that stayed at home. Its no problem because we also got something back in return: a speech and the sight of some impressive transport vehicles.

the costs are almost as unpredictable as the weather as my humor has it.

btw schniepel tco figuered out as much.

"First of all could you explain to me why you call Putin a massmurderer? I have been googling for like an hour and did not really find a clue.. chechenia?"
Its not like info on his concentration camps is hard to find. Many people "disappear". But yeah he did a lot of unnecessary wars  as well.

"They can do in may. But i fear they will vote horribly bad leaders in again!"
And they will get punished afterwards if they perform badly. That is how the system works.

"I dont see where putin is taking away the right to vote from ukrainians besides the ones living on the chrimea."
The previous leader of ukraine, supported by the Kremlin, made a state in effect an authoritarian regime. Only after the mass protests the parliament was restored to power. Its the same system as the soviet satellite states of old. If he wants authoritarian power, he needs putin. If putin wants control over ukraine, he needs an authoritarian regime. That is what happened, and that is why most people revolted.

"I am tempted to believe that his words at that time where not totally off and dishonest."
For real? That's beyond Naivety. You shouldn't believe any politician on his word, let go an authoritarian ex-kgb head of state.

"Also that speech was made in a time where the russian economy was booming and it was not that clear that gas is all they have."
How was it not clear? The nation was grounded under Yeltsin. It only went up "quick" in percentages because it fell to almost nothing first.

"Yes i do believe he was searching to become a closer ally to europe."
Why would he?

"But since we here in the golden west still think like in cold war times it was not possible to achieve."
I think most of us think in terms of oppressive regimes vs democratic ones. We gave Russia any chance to become democratic, free and tolerant. It would suffice for them not to oppress their own people to win our popular support like Gorbachev once did.

"Imagine how much more diplomatical influence we would have on putin if we would not have taken any chance to tell him "[language] evil ruski"."
Nothing, absolutely nothing. He would be more powerful and we would be a lot weaker.

"And yes.. the missile shield was clearly against iran.. since balistic missiles use to fly zigzag course on their way to the NL or the US."
No nation in the west ever thought of annexing Russia EVER. There lies the difference between an oppressive regime and a democratic independent nation. We would be happy if Russia became a real democracy because the nuclear threat would slowly fade away.

"Besides from the fact that most people there do not want to be a gift to the Ukrain AGAIN."
They will know what they bargained for soon enough. But you won't see anyone complaining that is true.

"Oh yes LP. For sure we can force a country which has no democratic tradition into being a democracy over night."
No, but we can force it the right way. We did it, and other nations can do the same. Its the only way forward. At least we can take care totalitarianism don't expands. They always start wars if they can,  no matter how you turn it.

Afghanistan and Iraq where invaded. I was talking about pressure to have a free country with a fully functional election system, not a war.

"After all, Putin was elected 3 times."
Very democratic idd.

"There are no signs that there has been a big amount of manipulation in any of that three elections."
Even in properly held elections in the west there are always signs of manipulation, be it on a small scale. If you don't see any signs at all, there is something terribly wrong. And we all know what went wrong. I would have voted Putin as well if I lived in Russia. Many of those who don't end up in prison anyway.

"Surely there was a lot of propaganda though.. no doubt. But after all I think Russia is way more open, free and democratic then it was 20 years ago. And things need time..."
If you speak your mind, you get beaten or end up in a concentration camp. Russia now is closer to Stalin's regime when it comes to oppression as during Gorbachev. There is little to no free press, and the 3 other divisions of powers of the state are all in the hands of a few. The same party members with privileges are now bathing in luxury and behaving like gods.

"I dont know if and when.. but I will bet 100 planets that he wont do before the election in mai.
I bet another 100 planets that a pro russian candidate will win that election and the problem solves itself.
And i bet 200 planets that the "west" and maidan movement will have something to complain then."
They got between 2 and 4 % less voters for pro-Russian parties with Crimea being part of Russia now. If wikipedia is any good as a source, 4% is the difference between the first and the second party last elections. I also bet many people will flee from or go to Crimea, making the difference even greater.

Many Ukrainians voted for him, it wouldn't surprise me if his party lost a lot of votes.

@zarf:
I should have clarified idd, so I give this one to you. I would go further and kiss your zarfy boots but, very unfortunate, you're a great eye now.

2007? like in 7 years ago?

If they stop delivering gas, we will suffer economically but they will be in total chaos long before our democracies are threatened. Authoritarian regimes only appear strong till you find out how ineffective, nonfunctional and corrupt they are afterwards. Some people thought heaven of the soviet union until it all came out how poor they really were.

Putin knows his power base is fragile. They will never cut the gas unless they fear to go down anyway.

China doesn't want Russia to stop the gas either. If EU econ goes down, they will go down with it, as they are in the same position where they can not afford mass riots.

"Honestly, there was more overlap between the rhetoric used by Bush jr. on the eve of the Iraq invasion and the rhetoric used by Hitler, than between the rhetoric used by Putin and Hitler."
Hitler started with annexation of dutch speaking parts, and some of the arguments chamberlain used  are the same as yours. Nazi Germany was a classic top down authoritarian regime like Putins. That is the analogy I want to make. Another large difference is US never owned and wanted to annex the region, Russia does.

"And did we stop the USA from invading Iraq? nope, we didnt, and we'll take this too, eventually. Coz, just as in the case of the Iraq invasion, theres simply nothing anyone can do about it, and noone is going to risk a breakdown of internation trade, leave alone a full-blown world war over such silly places as Iraq or Crimea."
They are so silly Putin would give it away but he accidentally invaded and risk his relations with the west. Once it started he forgot to blow it off. More urgent matters proly.

"In essence you're right, Russia is one huge criminal state. Question is, what shining beacon of hope do we have that DOES do it right ?"
None do it right, but many do it better.

"China with it's maoist government known for infractions on human rights and imprisoning political dissidents, and its unchecked economic growth that pollutes the environment for generations to come?"
China is another example of what happens if you let a non democratic regime go ahead.

"The USA that is a huge fascist police state (spying on its own population on a huge scale, patriot act, indoctrination of population with 'if youre not with us youre against us', no democracy at all - a 2-party system where you can choose between soft-touch liberalism and hard-touch liberalism is hardly democratic, Guantanamo, etcetc),"
Usa isn't as free as it once was and I regret it firmly, but it is far from being Russia and many things can be reversed still. You do exaggerate the existing steps towards totalitarianism that happened in US and EU. I do however share your concern here in general but that is another discussion.

"or the EU that is a powerless body made up of ever-bickering countries too small to pull any weight on their own and that keeps pouring money down the drain that is the dream of a unified europe without ever really unifying? Honestly, im not a fan of Putin either, but considering the alternatives, im still convinced the Crimeans can choose to join the Russians if thats what they really want. They knew fully well what they chose for."
No they don't know what they chose for. The only television or large part of the media in their language is owned by Putin. Its called brainwashing. Its risky to write in Russia even what you now wrote.

You should ask yourself this question: where do you want to live? That not-so-shiny-beacon or hell? EU/US or Russia/China?

"So is the USA and all European countries,"
If we had that amount of natural resources in EU we would all be as rich as Norway. That is why Russia doesn't collapse completely or is in the same state NK is.

"Russia is a democratic federation. Putin keeps being re-elected, sure, but the population keeps its right to vote."
Like in real Elections? Who are you fooling? Even if they were fair, he owns the media even more then Berlusconi did. I saw a lot of protest on the street and I saw why it died out: they are all in camps learning why Putins way is the right way. Also notice how ellections don't guarantee a good control system on the state.

"They're all particracies at best and corporatocracies at worst. "
But the control system still works despite the huge flaws and corruption. In Russia it doesn't.

"Yet, theres just as much wrong everywhere else"
Again, do you want to live there?? No you don't. Largely because of its regime. We wouldn't have this argument alright, but for me that would be a bad thing.

"the Crimeans have CHOSEN to join Russia"
Like there is one big "The Crimeans"? Like in Tatars and Ukrainians and Russians? You don't even know what they really chose cause no-one was allowed there and they were only presented 2 options. I would have voted to go into Russia if I was there not to get picked up by the police later on. Even then people make mistakes, especially when bombarded with  propaganda 24/7.