I didn't say we shouldn't be afraid of lunatics ignored by our politically correct military bureaucracy enabled by "gun free zones." That was the only incident which resulted in deaths or injuries (other than to the terrorist himself in the case of the guy burning off his own junk).

The other two "examples" you gave were of new regulations and authorities preventing nothing.

You're just being completely dishonest now in addition to refusing to respond to any of my points, ever. Whining and dishonesty doesn't change the fact that you don't have a single example of new regulations and the sexual assaults you endorse preventing a single attack, death, or injury. They've caught literally nothing.

2/3 of your examples we should be terrified of were inept idiots, one stopped by civilians after he had already failed and grievously injured himself. The other example is completely unrelated to air travel/security at all, was committed by an American, and could have been stopped with decent military oversight and an armed populace (which was not present, on a military base of all places, for his massacre).

You can't respond to anything I've said. So you whine and lie, "ooo he said he doesn't care about murder!" Yeah, whatever. All points conceded. Discussion, which you never engaged in, concluded.

We provided the plane, Mr. Yell. So now you're proposing we bomb ourselves?

The Fort Hood shooter massacred people as a result of politically correct oversight not doing its job and a gun-free zone. Without that PC bullshit he'd have pulled out his gun and gotten blown away, which is the fitting end to all murderous psychopaths' lives. The problems resulting in that massacre weren't a lack of bombings and invasions a world away. Anyone who thinks so is mentally limited and literally insane. Hell, the bombings were his sole motivation to hate the US military and want to kill as many of its member as possible. Clearly, the problem was not enough bombings!

As always, you're completely ignoring how ineffective these measures you accept are at preventing similar attacks in the future. You're accepting literally anything that's forced upon you by a government that wants you helpless and accepting of anything, including a literal hand down your kids' pants. You sound a little too scared and a little too irrational.

"Airport Body Scanners Catch Drugs, Not Explosives; 80-Plus People Hid Illegal Items Nationwide This Year, TSA Says"
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley … tch_dr.php

A little how-to guide! "How To Get Illegal Items Through the Airport"
http://snallabolaget.com/?page_id=506

"Gaping Holes in Airline Security: Loaded Gun Slips Past TSA Screeners"
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gu … d=12412458

I can find dozens more, but you've explicitly stated that you don't care if these measures work, so long as they violate my family's fourth amendment rights and sexually assault them as well. Not everyone enjoys a government worker's hands on them as much as you seem to.

Those damn Iraqi terrorists that killed so many Americans over the years, we got em!

Your faith in the corrupt trash this country elects to dish out death while bankrupting our children's future is beyond my ability to comprehend.

You accept the sacrifice of all hope for a better future for our children in the name of bombing people who aren't a threat to us. Globalist authoritarians have you scared, and for their protection and enslavement you're so frightened you'll pay literally any price.

I'm just glad our beloved president had the chance to shake his hand and accept a copy of his book first! There was probably some bowing involved, but that's so common I can't recall specifically.

dpenguins, I'm pretty sure we could help those people exponentially more by not inflating the hell out of the value of their currency and taxing most of what they earn away from them. I could hardly believe it when I saw that ad on TV. I guess, given all of the outright lies by heads of state today--including America's--I shouldn't have been surprised.

All you've got is responses to straw man positions nobody has stated.

"Self defense creates the moral authority."

This literally doesn't make any sense.

You might as well say "I know nothing about the topic, and I don't care. But I feel that I'm right, and I'm going to tell you about my plan for genocide. It would make me feel good. Screw responding to anything that's been said, genocide because it'll make me feel good is a good plan of action, which I am advocating here. I make no argument that it will effectively combat the threat I perceive. I offer no evidence that the threat I perceive is real at all, let alone so monumental as to warrant (morally or economically) genocide. But damnit I want genocide and I wanted to tell you all that I want it."

That's the world according to you, as you've posted here. If you care to actually respond to anything I've posted, it'll be here waiting.

I've questioned the results of "aid dictators then invade them with the US military when they threaten the interests of international bankers" as a policy of national defense.

I've questioned the wisdom of voters voting who literally have no idea what's going on in the region or who the US government is funding and arming, who elect leaders who act at the behest of international bankers without the knowledge of those same idiot voters who elected them.

I've questioned the morality of our support of authoritarians and oppression in general, on both the grounds of moral philosophy and the effects of such oppression and hypocrisy on the world (and the peoples you allege we should wipe from the earth) and the problem you're advocating it to solve. Frankly, I question whether killing millions of people is the best solution when those millions of people are allegedly angry with you for oppressing millions of people. Even if that isn't the real source of their anger, it'll certainly give way to a better alleged reason for the next group who's angry with you.

And I guess you might as well say, or I guess you pretty much implied directly, "I don't care that we oppress millions of people. I approve of the enslavement of others far worse than our country's founders fought and died to escape from. I'm a hypocrite with no regard for justice or a sustainable world in which America doesn't actively create enemies by enslaving people."

You aren't arguing that yes, the American government (as empowered by the American people) is doing wrong, but genocide is necessary regardless of the correction of these wrongs. You're just willfully ignorant of these wrongs and you don't care. You're making no arguments for the effectiveness of your proposed strategy, you're just willfully ignorant of the effectiveness of what you propose and you don't care.

I put the line somewhere above 0, Einstein.

The coming financial collapse this aggression quickens and worsens is going to claim a lot more than 0 lives, and harm hundreds of millions. I noticed that you didn't account for this, let alone imagine the broadest, vaguest comparison.

You haven't accounted for the harm these costs incur upon our nation at all, let alone judged them to be beneficial for the gain they get us. Hell, you can't even substantiate any gains from these bases and wars whatsoever. Nobody in Libya attacked us in decades before the bombing, and nobody has bombed us sin... Oh, wait. More Americans died to Libyans SINCE the bombing than in the 20 years preceding it. I can see why it's so hard for you to show results of the aggression you favor supposedly to protect us.

I'm the most aggressive and supportive of killing foreign barbarians to protect Americans that anyone can be.

All I'm saying is that, so long as we're propping up dictators we're actively oppressing peoples across the globe--something our ancestors rightfully killed and died to fight. So long as we're oppressing people we're hypocrites. So long as we're an active source of tyranny in the world, our noses aren't clean, and we don't argue from any sort of position of absolute moral authority.

All I'm saying is that "national defense" is not an excuse to enact the policies a stupid 12 year old could improve upon. It's not an excuse to flail about like a blind idiot and pretend that's defending us. It's not an excuse to blindly follow the idiots the American people elect.

I'm just saying that we should get our noses clean, to put it ridiculously lightly, before we pretend to have the moral authority to do anything we please. That's not to claim any acts of others are justified, it's just a philosophical statement that we should know better, and that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the uneducated barbarians you want to wipe from the Earth.

Aren't you guys Christians? One of Hosea's (minor prophet, Old Testament) biggest messages to Israel was that they should know better. That all of their neighbors were doing horrible things didn't somehow make Israel perfect--didn't mean that Israel should have overlooked and excused its own moral failings.

Message today? Others' moral failures is no excuse for us to be lazy and sloppy logically or morally. Yes, our society is far superior to virtually all in the Middle East in most ways. That's no excuse to fund dictators so that we can place military bases and bomb anyone who threatens to trade oil with gold-backed currency rather than the dollar. That's no excuse to refuse to rationally assess the success of actions taken supposedly to protect Americans and "American" interests (which are usually the interests of international banks, not the American people).

That's what you're doing, ignoring the content of my messages and arguments, instead accusing me of "blaming" us for this or that.

And, while we clean up our act, I think we need a much more deliberate examination of the actions taken and actions available to combat the threat of foreign terrorism. How can you combat it while your nation often funds it and trains terrorists? You can't. So you stop funding it. Then you thoroughly examine what's left and how you can combat that.

Newsflash: There is not that much left. This is a fact, as testified to by every possible mathematical and scientific measure conceivable to man.

Justinian I, that's somewhat correct, but I don't think there's anything near so simple as an "us" and "them" of politics, aggression, and oppression in the Middle East, and any such assessments are vastly oversimplified.

I don't think anyone America's funded has ever "turned" on us. The elite of the globe, international banking elite rich beyond our wildest imaginations with control over trillions of dollars, absolutely love everything that every terrorist group has ever done. They absolutely love the military industrial complex; it enriches them and gives them the means to topple anyone who threatens their dominion over and profiting from everything on the globe.

A dictator we've been funding for decades plans to trade oil for a new gold-backed currency, not the US dollar? Suddenly he's a terrorist-supporting threat to America and needs to be invaded, or extremist rebels (just as bad as the current authoritarian) must be supported to replace him! I suppose dictators "turned" on the globalist elite, but not the American people.

What have we gotten out of Invading Iraq, Afghanistan, or bombing Libya? Absolutely nothing, and even worse sentiments of the peoples of the region. I don't really care what anybody thinks (they tend to be as ignorant as the average Amerikan), but I think when we get nothing out of actions which cost trillions and thousands of American lives, it's pretty [cluckin'] stupid not to stop those actions and fire and jail everyone who pushed them on the American sheeple.

The globalist elite who seek to be more of slave-masters over us than they already are absolutely love the psychological and cultural impact of things like the TSA groping our wives, mothers, and children at airports just to visit the wife's family for her birthday. They love our subjugation by "authority" personnel who used to be public servants.

The US people used to be sovereign. But they're losing more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more power to those who would oppress them.

Google is a quasi-government organization which logs everything it can about you and your actions.

Retailers log everything they can about your purchases and behavior, and they add extra charges if you don't sign up for their tracking program.

We're pushed more and more to purchase with plastic, because it allows for more tracking and surcharges on every transaction of our lives. Cash still accounts for 70-80% of transactions, but you wouldn't guess this from the focus on pushing more credit and debit card usage on us.

The US military is doing exercises in US towns and cities. On targets representing pregnant women and old men not even aiming firearms at them. SWAT teams are used more and more often to harass and subjugate people for misdemeanors.

So yeah, I see a little more to it than "a necessary measure to protect us" when the elite subjugate us, kill people, and get our soldiers killed for absolutely no gain.

I think a person has to be one hell of an ignorant sheep, completely incapable of independent thought, to be brainwashed enough to believe that human nature has magically changed in the past few years.

History is literally filled with tyrants seeking more power over the people--who they literally always view as livestock not deserving of dignity, let alone rights and freedom--and seeking to take more of the products of people's labor.

It is my opinion that willful ignorance of this move toward subjugation and slavery is the greatest evil of our day. Tyrants with money and power have always sought more of both. But people were generally unhappy with this, and America used to represent a monumentally successful rebellion against such tyranny.

Since the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 especially, we've certainly fallen a great deal from this ideal. In recent years, more rapidly than average. The American people are subjugated (government authority) and emasculated (government authority and chemicals in foods), prepared for even greater robbery and slavery.

When something is claimed to be for security, conveniently subjugates the American people, and doesn't even achieve anything of the security which it's claimed to be for, I think everyone who buys the claimed purpose of the action is a damned fool and a rotten human being.

Edit: I'm sorry for all the trolling and filibustering, Einstein. I'll try, in the future, to discuss ideas more. I'm trying my best to achieve your level of intellectual and social development, but I'm just not as smart or righteous as you.

There are tons of other mass gatherings without anything remotely approaching airport security. If the terror threat that causes you to pee yourself and give up all of your rights absolutely was 1/10 what it's alleged, we'd have had some actual attacks in the past decade. Certainly more than the number that there have been, which is 0.

Sure, travel is more structurally important, but these mass gatherings are are still available for purposes of terror... yet they've been utilized a grand total of 0 times! Ohnoes, I'm terrified! There's a threat to our nation! Too bad it's 99% imaginary. And that's good enough for you to submit.

DHS/TSA's "security" measures aren't even ideal. Yet you don't care that they're not about security. You're doing what you're told. As long as someone is demonstrating authority, that gets you off. It doesn't matter to you that it's not authority being used for security purposes.

Clearly if one guy is an idiot, nobody has any rights! Again your logic is as flawless as it is insightful!

Yes, people have no right to travel by air knowing full well who they're purchasing travel from, the standards of those companies and individuals, and the security measures in place. People are too stupid to make decisions like that for themselves! People are too stupid to take care of themselves! Only government and TSA are efficient and professional enough to protect us! They're all competent professionals held to the highest standard! The buck stops with them, and they never avoid blame for anything that goes on under their watch, let alone everything!

I guess you have nothing to fear from TSA scanners which cause cancer. The life of a slave isn't worth that much anyway.

Haha you know exactly the opposite... of the truth. Bush and Obama, and the international banks which own them, are honest and honorable people, you argue! You're a sucker, I argue.

Like your simplistic understanding of monetary policy. You presume their sole goal is hyperinflation, as if they don't benefit from the dollar being the international reserve currency, and dominant currency of the oil trade, in the mean time.

If the dollar collapses now, their political aspirations of complete authoritarian control and the complete ruin of American liberty are threatened. They're not ready for hyperinflation yet. Threats to their political aspirations of increased power have coincidentally been squashed with the American military. But you're sure that everyone they say is a threat was a threat! It's not like they're heartless satanists who've killed tens of thousands of Americans with experiments over the past century. They wouldn't do that! They bring hope and change! Yes we can! Gov'mint loves us! I got me a free phone!

I'm still waiting for you to answer simple questions like "Why should we care?" Considering that such simple questions are beyond you, that you pretend to have made a more substantial case is as laughable as your confusion regarding our support for Al Qaeda in Libya and Syria.

Which fails to respond to anything I said or answer a single one of my many questions.

It's not an official name. Many of the people we refer to with that name don't use it or associate with it in any way. Your statement is meaningless and incoherent.

The word has been hijacked by modern authoritarians. Yes, you are correct concerning its classical meaning and usage. It is, however, lost. It's been misused beyond repair. It will never mean that again, at least not any time soon.

There's nothing "center right" or "center left" about it.

Why should we do anything in Syria? Why is it any of our business? Are you implying we should bomb anyone in Syria? I'm open to considering your argument, if you can make one.

By asking if we should BOMB people we're currently FUNDING and ARMING, you're implying that you have a problem with what we're doing right now. Why not voice that opinion? What are you afraid of?