2,926

(13 replies, posted in Politics)

> BiefstukFriet wrote:

> This forum would quickly become void of users if educated debate were to become the norm, I'm afraid.



If this forum would become a void if educated debate was the norm, this forum frankly doesn't deserve to exist.

That being said, I would say that Flint's recommendations are not within the jurisdiction of any Constitution I could write.  At most, the only thing I can do is offer recommendations to the moderators.  Aside from that, the Constitution I have proposed is 100% player driven.


That being said, I'm in no way saying that this is a dead-on-arrival list of suggestions.  However, this probably belongs in the ideas forum, as it is a recommendation for the moderators to make changes, not for the community itself to make changes.

2,927

(145 replies, posted in General)

Yo momma so stupid she gave you "good joke" points for what you just said!

2,928

(145 replies, posted in General)

@You_Fool

A joke generally is a witty way to imply an assumption.  They need that slow buildup until finally reaching the punchline.


Or, in the form of "yo momma" jokes, the formula generally calls for some form of witty hyperbole to express the initial point (the buildup is "yo momma so fat...")


Avignon's posts were simply yelling out said assumptions.  If the humor was meant in the conventional sense of "humor," what he did was the equivalent of the following blonde joke:


Blondes are stupid.



It loses its appeal at that point.

2,929

(45 replies, posted in Politics)

Edited my vote

> Bartender wrote:

> The man cant win.  Too many are banking on his failure.  Was it Rush Limbaugh that said he hoped obama failed and ran the country into the ground?  i dont remember.  It was some republican(jealous).




Do you see any similarities between this and... oh, the same country 4 years ago?

2,931

(24 replies, posted in Politics)

Sorry, been busy all day, and lost one post due to a computer malfunction mid-typing.  sad  Only typing this because I woke up in the middle of the night.

2,932

(45 replies, posted in Politics)

Considering that Flint is using popular vote to determine the topic, it's kind of unrealistic to expect him to start the debate when there is currently a 9-way tie for 1st place.  tongue

2,933

(30 replies, posted in Politics)

Please refer to the new sticky above.

2,934

(24 replies, posted in Politics)

Did you want me to give the first rebuttal post, or shall you?

2,935

(145 replies, posted in General)

I had to explain this in chat, and I'll do it once more here:


If you interpret them as jokes, then they don't go in Politics.


If you interpret them as accusations, then the next question becomes: How effective is this thread as a tool to discuss the accusations?

It's impossible to substantively discuss the accusations as a whole due to their diversity.  You're left with only one option: Discussing each one individually.  Once that happens, we have created, in effect, 40 separate, mutually exclusive topics which could all exist independently, combined within this one thread.  That creates an unorganized mess of a thread in which we have to sift through 400 pages of posts to find out which were talking about abortion and which were talking about gun rights.

Unless the thread can sustain a substantive discussion, it shouldn't be considered a thread in which the purpose is to discuss the merits of the accusations.

2,936

(145 replies, posted in General)

When did you leave the GOP?

2,937

(24 replies, posted in Politics)

Sweet!  As for defining the age, shouldn't be much of a problem, once you see my post.  smile

Note to the community: This is one giant Devil's Advocate on my part, mainly only taking place after some out-of-forum discussion between the two of us... I don't plan on starting some massive suicide cult.  tongue


I want to start off with a small side note.  I believe the best way to calculate the best course of action is to evaluate the viewpoint which most effectively protects the most lives.  That being said, we must remember one thing: Humans are not fully self-sufficient.  We rely on forests for oxygen, a stable biosphere for food, and various animal species existing in order to sustain biospheres.  Even outside our planet, we require the sun to provide sunlight.  Thus, as much as human life is valuable, the world around us is important to sustain that human life.



There's two key arguments here:

1: Our impact upon the universe.

Humans today are on the verge of achieving a number of technological breakthroughs.  Now, we normally see many of these as generally good things.  However, there's a great risk with each coming technology.  Humanity has so many different technologies expanding, all at the same time.  With modern societies, this is inevitable, as the drive for progress creates ever-expanding growth.  That being said, these always create the possibility of unintended consequences.

A: We're on the verge of a massive breakthrough in nanotechnology.  Nanotechnology, when fully materialized, has the possibility to revolutionize the way we live, by manipulating matter at the atomic level.  This is pretty awesome, and could have huge implications for every aspect of the way we live.  The very profitability of the technology, even being seen today, would indicate that this makes nanotechnology's development inevitable.  Even national governments, including China and the United States, are in races to see which nation will be the first to garner the benefits from fully maturing nanotechnology.  And no, this is not something coming out in 50 years.... nanotechnology is being matured today.  Authors such as Ray Kurzweil have said that fully matured nanotechnology will be a reality within 10-15 years.  The future is here.

That being said, many scientists have highlighted a major fear in nanotechnology's development: the "gray goo" problem.  In order to most efficiently produce nanomachines, most machines would need to be able to self-replicate, taking matter from outside the environment to produce what is needed.  Using external machinery to create final outputs of nanotechnology would either be inefficient, requiring human inputs when none are needed, or would be self-regulated, resulting in the same system, in effect.

So most nanotechnology will take the form of self-replicating machines.  Okay.  Except that it only takes one glitch, one failed experiment, or one deliberate reprogramming of a single machine in order to turn a productive nanofactory into a global disaster.  Imagine if just one of those self-replicating machines were to be programmed to produce copies of itself using materials that could be easily obtained from the environment, such as oxygen or carbon?  Or imagine if a safeguard to normally tell a nanomacine to stop reproducing... suddenly stopped working?  Either of these could happen quite easily, by either accident or design.

And the results would be disastrous.  Eric Drexler, a physicist who first proposed this theory, laid the calculation out quite plainly.  If a single nanobot could produce a copy of itself once every half hour (a fairly conservative estimate), the mass of nanobots would weigh the size of the Earth within just 2 days, destroying the planet in the process.  In addition, because matter travels between spacial bodies, there is a risk that these machines could spread even beyond the Earth, reaching other asteroids, planets, and even outside our solar system.


B: I know this website probably isn't the most legitimate of websites, but it is fairly effective in explaining the argument.

http://www.exitmundi.nl/quantum.htm

"It will be over before anyone can say `sorry'. In a laboratory somewhere, someone tries to get hold of a weird and completely new, exotic type of energy. But boy, the experiment goes out of hand. Suddenly, there's a BIG explosion. And then there's nothing -- our planet, the sun, all planets in our solar system and even some stars surrounding our solar system have been blown to smithereens.

And explaining what went wrong isn't even simple. We're talking quantum physics here: the physics of the vanishingly small building blocks that make up all matter in the Universe.

In quantum physics, everything is totally different from daily life. Quantum particles can be in two places at the same time, and can behave both like waves and particles. In fact, when you hear a quantum physicist say `particles', don't think of little, round balls. Quantum `particles' are better compared with tones of music: they're definitely there, but you can't see them or catch them.

One of the most mind-boggling properties of quantum particles is that they come into existence out of nowhere. Suck every molecule of air out of a bottle, making it completely vacuum -- and quantum particles will still be there. They pop up in pairs out of nowhere. And within a tiny fraction of a second, they merge together and -- zzzip! -- they're gone.

It is precisely this odd `quantum vacuum' that may one day open the door to a very new source of energy. Suppose you're able to snatch some of those out-of-nowhere particles away. Admittedly, you'll have to be REALLY fast. But if you do succeed, you'll have harvested particles out of nowhere. And since matter and energy are basically the same stuff (according to Einstein's E=mc2), you'll have energy out of nowhere!

The advantages would be unimaginable. Here's an energy source that never runs out, is everywhere around, is extremely cheap, and causes no pollution whatsoever.

But then again, there is a small, but alarming risk. There may be simply energy too much. Mining the quantum vacuum might bring about an unstoppable chain reaction, releasing an ever increasing amount of energy. In fact, no-one knows how much energy will be released: calculations done by physicists give answers anywhere between zero and infinity.

Obviously, too much energy would mean trouble. The explosion could be huge enough to blow apart our entire solar system and everything around it. And of course, infinite energy would bring about infinite destruction, bombing not just a handful of stars, but everything in the entire Universe.

Gladly, no present-day scientist is capable of mining the quantum vacuum. On the other hand: one day, there will be. And that day may arrive sooner than you think: some estimate  around 2020 science will be ready. Let's hope physicists finally have their calculations straightened out by then."



There's not much I need to add to this, at least for now...


C: Just call this scenario "Rise of the machines."

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

By Bill Joy, co-founder of Sun Microsystems and a computer scientist.  He's very well-known for this specific piece, "Why the future doesn't need us."


"First let us postulate that the computer scientists succeed in developing intelligent machines that can do all things better than human beings can do them. In that case presumably all work will be done by vast, highly organized systems of machines and no human effort will be necessary. Either of two cases might occur. The machines might be permitted to make all of their own decisions without human oversight, or else human control over the machines might be retained.

If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions, we can't make any conjectures as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave. We only point out that the fate of the human race would be at the mercy of the machines. It might be argued that the human race would never be foolish enough to hand over all the power to the machines. But we are suggesting neither that the human race would voluntarily turn power over to the machines nor that the machines would willfully seize power. What we do suggest is that the human race might easily permit itself to drift into a position of such dependence on the machines that it would have no practical choice but to accept all of the machines' decisions. As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide.

On the other hand it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite - just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. If the elite is ruthless they may simply decide to exterminate the mass of humanity. If they are humane they may use propaganda or other psychological or biological techniques to reduce the birth rate until the mass of humanity becomes extinct, leaving the world to the elite. Or, if the elite consists of soft-hearted liberals, they may decide to play the role of good shepherds to the rest of the human race. They will see to it that everyone's physical needs are satisfied, that all children are raised under psychologically hygienic conditions, that everyone has a wholesome hobby to keep him busy, and that anyone who may become dissatisfied undergoes "treatment" to cure his "problem." Of course, life will be so purposeless that people will have to be biologically or psychologically engineered either to remove their need for the power process or make them "sublimate" their drive for power into some harmless hobby. These engineered human beings may be happy in such a society, but they will most certainly not be free. They will have been reduced to the status of domestic animals.1 "

Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention: This specific passage was a quotation from the writings of Ted Kaczinsky, the Unabomber responsible for various bombings at research facilities.  While his actions weren't necessarily justified, his argument still stands.  Assuming computer technology is advanced to the point where it meets, and exceeds, human capabilities, humans would no longer have the monopoly on intelligence.  In effect, we would be relegated out of existence.  Not necessarily through some giant war, like you've seen in movies.  But either way, computer technology would be the future, and life would be obsolete.



2: Our impact upon our own biosphere.

As humans moved outside their stone-age civilizations, they transformed into what modern ecologists call an invasive species.  We traveled to biospheres that were, at the time, not adjusted to accommodate humans.  With each advancement in modernization, we step closer toward pushing out various biospheres.  A few examples:

Global agriculture removes huge swaths of land from natural use.  In many cases, this includes land which was vastly important for the world.  The best example here is the Amazon Rain forest, currently being destroyed to make room for cattle ranching and farming to feed millions of people.

Biotechnology-based plants have been extremely strong in the capability to compete with other plants.  Rice seeds that have been allowed to escape containment have easily been able to outcompete most crops.  if given the capability to reproduce freely, such plants could easily become invasive species across continents, destroying any ecological balance on the planet and destroying the global food supply.

Resource extraction is devastating to regions of the planet.  Mining interests to this day fight against environmentalists interested in protecting key regions.  With just one favorable election, ecologically protected regions could be removed from protection status, mined, and set to points where the ecological properties are modified enough to dejustify protecting the region, losing key biospheres.

Monocropping is one of the most dangerous farming techniques, and it's extremely common in the developed world.  By only using one crop in farming regions, the land being farmed is degraded to the point where it loses its minerals, leaving the land to become unable to sustain most life.

Every form of energy production currently produced, with the exception of solar energy and possibly geothermal energy, have some damage upon the environment, whether it's carbon monoxide emissions, thermal pollution, the risk of massive spills, or any other form of pollution.  Each one has devastating effects upon the environment.

Industrial-level resource extraction doesn't factor in the needs to balance the environment.  Overfishing and whaling risk throwing ocean biospheres into chaos, in particular.



Why do I list all these problems?  Because nature is a fragile being.  It depends on a large level of genetic diversity in order to survive.  If enough species that fill a particular niche are removed, the entire tapestry unfolds.

Let me give you two examples of this:

1: The bees.  Honeybees are probably the #1 best example of a keystone species.  They are needed globally in order to pollinate a number of plants.  Today, however, they are starting to die out.  Nobody's exactly sure why.  A good portion of theories present some form of human interference as the cause, as Colony Collapse Syndrome has only been widespread recently.

2: Whales.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/birds/spectacled_eider/worldcatch.html

The story is insane.  100,000 otters inhabited the Aleutian islands.  Then five baleen whales came into the region.  Within 5 years, the numbers dropped to 6,000 otters.  All because of one extremely tiny instance of an invasive species moving into an environment.




I'll avoid the global warming debate with you.  I'm more familiar with the science of nanotechnology and artificial intelligence than climate change.  smile

2,938

(24 replies, posted in Politics)

Guys... this is intended to be a 1v1, me vs. Flint.  Could we keep the greater discussion out, at least until we each get in our couple of posts?  Thanks!

2,939

(22 replies, posted in Politics)

smile

2,940

(22 replies, posted in Politics)

Hezbollah*

2,941

(38 replies, posted in Politics)

Not a nice way to start off, Bartender... X(

2,942

(38 replies, posted in Politics)

Update: I'm working on writing the document now.

Let me explain how I see the system:

We have the capability to fight against undesirable members of the Politics community.  That fight requires two things:
A: A statement that we, as individual members, are asking for forgiveness for past transgressions of diplomatic discourse in the forum, and thus can't be called as hypocrites, and
B: A unified front to coordinate specific actions against said members of the community.


As such, the document, as envisioned, is to be divided into two parts:
Part 1: The belief system.  This is where the community agrees to the forms of discourse which we wish to eliminate from the community.
I've divided this up into two sections: Core values (consider this the equivalent of the "spirit of the law" in the modern legal system), and specific violations.  While the two systems can operate together, it should be wholly possible to demand retribution for someone who violates core values of the system, yet does not violate specific rules.


Part 2: The organizing structure.  I wish having a statement of values would be enough.  However, members who have consistently attempted to undermine effective communication on this forum won't care for a second about a document drafted saying "this is what we would like to see."  For some, we're left with only one option: to organize, and fight against these people as a community, using what tools we do have at our disposal.

This part includes 3 sections:
A section about the enforcement mechanisms the community can use to punish offenders.  Currently, I have devised three mechanisms of enforcement:
A: The censure.  Just a simple warning to someone.
B: The community ban.  Fairly self-explanatory, the community collectively refuses to respond to these people.
C: Cataloging.  With each offense, we copy enough evidence to prove a prior offense did occur by that person, and save it on an external forum.  As a person builds up offenses, we can bring the evidence to the mods, now with a preponderance of evidence that this person has a systemic history of violating the rules, and should be given harsher punishments.


Next, is the organizing structure.  We obviously need people to judge when someone has violated the rules.  This would give us the organization to do just that.  This also includes provisions for amending the document.

Finally, part 2 includes a section regarding signing the document, what the signing of the document means, and provisions for removing members.




Part 1 is complete below.  Other parts of the document are only semi-complete, so I won't post them yet.  I am looking for feedback, both regarding the writing and the content of the below statement.  If there is a part which you wish to dispute as part of a larger discussion (maybe you think people shouldn't be treated as equals), let me know, and I'll create a new thread for it (Consider this part of my Metadebating series).

Remember, this is a rough draft.  If you don't like something, it can be amended.





Section 1: Core values

Members of the Imperial Conflict Politics Association hold these core values:

That the Politics forum was created for, and only for, discussions of the ideas and concepts of political issues, or to discuss matters pertaining to the governance, discourse, and behavior within the Politics forum.

That methods of communication directed at humiliating or defacing an individual are counterproductive to the longevity of intellectual discourse within the Politics forums, and must be eliminated with due diligence.

That forum participants enter the Politics forum as equals, and should be treated with equal respect as one would desire upon them.

That members of the Politics forum should not be personally held to their views, and should be allowed to rescind a view without feeling of loss to personal integrity.

That we, as a community, have a responsibility to ensure that discourse within the Politics forum reflects the values of respect and integrity defined under this document.

That we, as a community, have the tools, both with and without the needs of moderator intervention, to transform the discourse within the forum into one more favorable toward constructive discussion, and must do so in a manner which most represents the greatest benefit to the community.


The signing members of the community agree to uphold these core values, both in their participation within the Imperial Conflict Politics Association and in their participation in the Imperial Conflict forums.







Before you ask, yes, I know... it does seem to be more philosophical than substantive.  This is going to be the exception, not the norm. smile

2,943

(11 replies, posted in Roleplay)

*walks in*
*sits down*
*orders a Dr. Pepper*

2,944

(45 replies, posted in Politics)

Okay, I gotcha!

Fair tax
Nukes
Imperialism

2,945

(45 replies, posted in Politics)

Just some preliminary investigations of views (I can't really say "I challenge you on the following" without knowing at least what side of the issue I'll be taking...").  In addition, some of these topics are so huge, you have to figure out exactly what the discussion is about...

Imperialism (I assume the question at hand is the benefits of old European/American imperialism, correct?)
Nukes (Generally guessing that you'll affirm the legitimacy of nuclear weapons, correct?)
China (This topic, as you have described it so far, is freaking huge!)
Property zoning laws (I'm going to guess that you don't like them, correct?)
Free trade (Assuming you support free trade, yes?)




yikes By the way, the Stone Age isn't on the list!  tongue

1: How many people get a chance to vote for that ex-KKK guy?  There's a long chain of votes, and with each step, it gets more difficult to attribute that figure's place to any voters, because they lose more and more control.
2: If you're willing to indict the party because one guy is an ex-KKK member, does that mean the Dems have free reign to accuse the GOP of racism by finding even one member who had questionable organizational ties?  Quite a slippery slope.
3: Nope, way too far away from Wisconsin.  tongue

Oh, missed the Civil Rights Amendment one.  Remember, though... the vast majority of Congress didn't vote on any of the bills you cited.  When accusing a single party of racism, you need to remember that the parties have made fundamental shifts in ideology between years.  The GOP was a completely different party in the years before and after Ronald Reagan...

Fair enough.  *steps outside to let the debate continue*

> Einstein wrote:

> Get a list yourself. It is to much work for me on a smart phone. Copy paste of hundreds of things is to much.




As of this thread, you have:
Posted examples of racism by the Democrats from, as of the most recent one, 65 years ago.
Then, when someone asked if it mattered, you said:


"Your party leaders support racist measures.

You vote for your party leaders.

How is this not supporting racism?"

Notice: All present tense.

Then when asked about it, not even one modern example was presented.  Instead, you ask those whom you are trying to enlighten about said racism to find examples to support your side for them... Guess what: If they do the research themselves, there's no point to this thread!  smile



Either present evidence to support framing of racism in the present tense, or retract your prior accusation of racism (as, at least within this thread, you provide 0 evidence of modern racism).

How many of the policies you cited are supported by modern mainstream Democrats?