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Topic: Election at this point

It's pretty interesting all that is going on. I've been watching a lot of cnn, fox news, etc. etc. and it's probably the most interesting election I've seen in a long long while.


I'm still trying to figure out why people are saying that obama is talking out his ass. Perhaps I'm missing these debates? Anyways, the other day obama and hillary were debating about the gas tax holiday. Hillary is pro, Obama is against it. McCain is against it as well but he's also against what Obama had to say about it.

So I wonder, who do we need to be president. Just for example's sake,

The gas tax holiday, imo, is a bad idea because we all know that when you take money from one place, it has an effect on another place. if oil is 120.00 I believe it is now, a barrel to buy and we're selling it at 90.00 a barrel, where do we make up the balance? According to obama's camp, the oil companies will raise rates to cover the loss of profits. Sounds reasonable. Hillary says that we should lower the gas prices for the summer as well as pay for the costs. I'm still trying to understand her logic considering that we would just end up paying higher costs than before in the fall because of all the money that the government lost in the summer by reducing gas prices.

Ok McCain says he's against it as well. But lets go a lil bit furthur with McCain. McCain has already made it perfectly clear he wants to continue this fight with Iraq and its neighbors. He's also stated his policies  with Iran which are non-peaceful.

Ok now lets state that America's economy is heavily dependant on natural resources and oil. We simply don't have those resources here. Or not enough to cover our needs anyhow. This is why our economy is so bad. Where are these resources? In the middle eastern nations. So common sense would say that if your policies towards the nations holding the resources that our economy is so heavily dependant on are negative, then you really can't possibly have a valid plan of fixing our economic state.

Right?


Ok so lets go back to Obama. Obama has a good understanding of what's going on. Especially since he has a better understanding of the working class americans. Now I'd have to say that it is most likely that the middle eastern nations are probably more likely to favor relations with Obama than with any of the other candidates. Why? Well, lets just assume he's the worst of the candidates. Can't give a proper speech, can't properly assign laws, etc. What are the other choices. A while american male republicans? Or a woman? Sad to say, but the fact is that the first choice, being McCain is a terrible one given that white american male republicans are some of the most loathed humans walking the earth around the world. Feel free to disagree. But anyways, I seriously doubt that any of these middle eastern politicians want to really deal with McCain, especially with his background and ties to the bush administration.

Ok over to hillary, it's a well known fact that for whatever reason, women are just not looked upon as equals in this world. Especially in the middle east. We know this. However, her name, gives her a lot of clout due to her husband. And also the fact that her husband will likely be involved with many of her political activities. Billary =p

Back to Obama. We know he has very little experience compared to the other candidates. Now there have been people who have a natural ability to lead or to do jobs well without experience. Some of you have been given jobs based on your personality and drive and have done well. But lets be real. Will the American nation really accept an inexperienced president in such trying times? Doubtful. Will the white nation of America really be able to say that a black man is their leader? Not likely. So even if he were to somehow win the presidential election. Could he really gather the support he needs from the country as well as congress? Probably not.

So really...America is pretty much screwed up. No matter who we vote for, we're taking a chance. Hillary I think is the best solution. None of the candidates will be able to "fix" the economy. All we can do is hope for one with the best long term plan to get things moving in the right direction for the next 10 years so the next president.

That requires us to:

1. End this war with iraq and try to establish good relations with them
2. Stop trying to Americanize every other nation in the world
3. Focus on building and economy that's not dependant or not SO dependant on oil.
4. Establish some sort of immigration laws that will prevent illegal immigrants from moving into the country so much. (Not that I have anything against them, but these are pretty trying times and quite frankly, with the economy being so bad, having an increase in birth rates as well as illegal immigrants doesn't help the job and health care market
5. Allocate taxes properly. (atm, there are some things that are being taxed heavily that shouldn't be and vice versa)

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Re: Election at this point

We get OUR oil from North America.  But the world market relies on the Middle East adn Africa, especially the rest of the G8 (well not Russia but they don't belong in the G8 anyhow)

Any of these three dumbasses are going to make you all pine for the Bush era when we had a President with some focus

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3 Reply by [RPA]Sir SupAll (edited by [RPA]Sir SupAll 06-May-2008 14:46:16)

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Re: Election at this point

A quick correction to your post, Nolio, McCain is for the gas tax.  He's the one that proposed it in the first place.  As for Obama, I believe he's only going to make it harder on the Americans if he even goes for the Oil companies (like Clinton).  These are corporations we're dealing with who know the laws inside and out and they'll only raise their prices to cover their losses, which in turn causes Americans to pay for more. 

"Obama has a good understanding of what's going on. Especially since he has a better understanding of the working class americans."

Apparently he doesn't if he feels $70 for the length of the Gas Tax Holiday isn't a whole lot to Americans who are just getting by.

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Re: Election at this point

Perhaps make cars that don't consume as much fuel. That way the increase in price won't be as bad...
Big american cars takes... what? 1-2 liters / 10km? Most cars here takes around 0.6 liters. Perhaps that's why we don't whine about our very high gasoline prices...

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Re: Election at this point

"Perhaps that's why we don't whine about our very high gasoline prices..."

Or that Europeans don't commute as much, or as far, as Americans do.  There are plenty of Americans that drive a total of 1-2 hours of commute time to and from their workplace going on a combination of city roads and highways.  It takes me 25 minutes to get to work via the highway, and my family only has one van to use, so not only does my father and I have to get to the hospital to work, but my mother needs the van to go grocery shopping, picking up my siblings from school (two of the three are 10-15 minutes away).  This all adds up.  In fact, because of the fact that this is the only way for us to commute, we have to fill up the tank 2-3 times a week.  At $4 a gallon, that's easily $100+.  And the funny part is, living in cities has a higher living expense than living in the suburbs, so many, if not most, are not able to just move closer to work.

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Re: Election at this point

Nolio, you completely disregard the fact that China and India have both massively increased their demand for oil in recent years.  It's simple economics: demand for oil is enormous, and supply hasn't increased, which means the price will inevitably increase.  Your requests for the US to be "nice" to the Middle East have little to do with the oil market.

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Re: Election at this point

Clinton went after Microsoft as the big prize, and after the Telecoms.
Look how that went.

America gets its oil from Mexico and Canada.


Nolio:

1. End this war with iraq and try to establish good relations with them
We have good relations w/Iraq.  Its the US who supports their Govt.

2. Stop trying to Americanize every other nation in the world
Have no idea what this means.  Every other nation in the world ?

3. Focus on building and economy that's not dependant or not SO dependant on oil.
Yes.  Lets drill off shore, in Alaska, and refine here at home.

4. Establish some sort of immigration laws that will prevent illegal immigrants from moving into the country so much. (Not that I have anything against them, but these are pretty trying times and quite frankly, with the economy being so bad, having an increase in birth rates as well as illegal immigrants doesn't help the job and health care market

We have the laws in place to enforce the border.  We just dont enforce them.

5. Allocate taxes properly. (atm, there are some things that are being taxed heavily that shouldn't be and vice versa)
Woot.  How about we alocate less power to the Govt. and leavy less taxation period.

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8 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 06-May-2008 19:23:18)

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Re: Election at this point

BW,

Apparently, the oil drilled and refined in Alaska goes to Japan.

As for Iraq, it needs a dictatorship dependent and loyal to the US. Democracy only works when there is a strong middle class and educated population, things that are absent in Iraq.

As for government, well our Bureaucracy is absurdly inefficient. Aside from reducing government, we also need to whip our bureaucracy in to shape.

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Re: Election at this point

Canada provides something like 16% of US oil supply.

"As for Iraq, it needs a dictatorship dependent and loyal to the US. Democracy only works when there is a strong middle class and educated population, things that are absent in Iraq."

At the time the Constitution was signed something like 1/3 of the USA was illiterate and many were substinence farmers.

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Re: Election at this point

I disagree w/the notion that a people cannot live free and democratic.

A dictatorship is simple when no one else cares that they exist.
A dictatorship is useful when multiple parties are working for the cooperation of the dictator, to strengthen one of the parties position.
A dictatorship is useful to check another dictator.

When the ability to eliminate a dictator w/o degrading your own position is possible, you take him out.

Iraq will be just fine. 
It is Iran and Syria that are nervous now.

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11 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 07-May-2008 04:18:33)

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Re: Election at this point

BW,

Okay, give me an example where a democracy/republic was established and able to continue without a strong middle class and educated citizen population?

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12 Reply by Skoe (edited by =( sKoE )= 07-May-2008 08:40:11)

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Re: Election at this point

> We get OUR oil from North America.

Wrong.

> America gets its oil from Mexico and Canada.

Wrong.


The largest exporter of oil to the U.S. is Saudi Arabia. Unless they have moved Saudi since i last checked, the U.S. is receiving a significant amount of oil from the middle east.


***

Edit: Also

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif

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Re: Election at this point

lol I just wanted to talk about the election. A lot of people are so mixed up on some things that I think I'm gonna go play in my coloring book =p

Sex without the e is still SX!

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14 Reply by Gladiator (edited by Gladiator 07-May-2008 23:14:57)

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Re: Election at this point

before i read the whole post..i just had to point it out first before i forgot...McCain is also for the gas tax break, he's not against it big_smile

EDIT: i see someone has already pointed that out ..anyways onto the rest of the post

some alright points, but i thought you were for obama??
1) hillary thankfully has no chance of winning so it's preet much obama or the old guy
2) hillary from what i see is another politician, she'll do anything to get elected and when i mean anything i really do mean ANYTHING--she's been tested before, and she will do anything, if she could she'd kill obama if that's what it took
3) i doubt hillary or obama will get A LOT, other than ending the war in iraq,  done. It's simply too hard with the different stages in the system, and quite frankly some of the things are next to impossible in the first term
4) Obama has a good chance of winning this, a woman's chance are no better than a black man's chance, mccain has the lead there but he looses those points due to his anger, lack of co-operation and simply arrogance, have you heard him talk to reporters? one pushy question and u see him turn red and come at you like a dragon--we don't need that, can you imagine him getting irritated when he can't understand what the chinese president is saying? Bomb bomb bomb bomb wink

jokes aside though, obama will have a really tough time, A REALLY tough time, but i dont think it's impossible and i for one think he's the only one who's guna actually push for "change" good change that is, hillary is jsut guna say what it takes to get to the top, and then when there, she's guna do exactly what politicians like her in the past have done... NOTHING

yeah most of you are guna say, Glad's a close minded, young dumass who doesn't know how it works big_smile..well that might be true wink, but i know one thing, you can't stop the obamanator

ahah big_smile

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Re: Election at this point

Why do people think Europeans don't commute to work? =/ Do we all live in our offices? big_smile

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Re: Election at this point

forget the tax holiday, forget taxes at all, we should just kill the wealthiest 1% of the population and plunder their property to support the rest of the population  every year or so.

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Re: Election at this point

"Why do people think Europeans don't commute to work? =/ Do we all live in our offices? "

I highly doubt you commute by cars as much as Americans do. :\

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Re: Election at this point

> SuperNolioBrothers wrote:

> lol I just wanted to talk about the election. A lot of people are so mixed up on some things that I think I'm gonna go play in my coloring book =p

Care to point out which of us have chased you into your coloring book and why?

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Re: Election at this point

We have excellent relations with saudis and that goes back since the 1940s since before the formation of Israel by the brits and all that have gone since. If that didn't shake them from us there's darn little that will. I don't know if they are still our largest importer, that was true before alberta started booming and I'll check


Blackwing lives in New York state, I'm down here near the border and we do resent being told what we owe Mexico and how we have to shell out to keep them here. Let them go live in the country of their allegiance. If that's the USA then fine, but if they're loyal sons and daughters of Mexico they can live there. Mexico has no problem telling all foriegners to get the hell out of Mexico and that is why it is so poor that 1/7th of its adults came here to work. This aint Mexico anymore because of a war and it won't go back without a war either.

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Re: Election at this point

> We have excellent relations with saudis

Irrelevant to my point tongue.

My point was that both you and Black_Wing dismissed the middle east of having any impact on the U.S. via oil. This is simply not true.

If Iran and the U.S. go to war, the U.S. had better disable *all* Iranian aircraft, boats and artillary (As well as all owned by Syria too). Even after that, Iranian (and other) operatives will attack civilian ships, etc, with the intent of reducing the amount of Oil that gets to the U.S and/or trying to disrupt this flow to the U.S.

Which is a simple idea that revalidates my argument here: You cannot dismiss the middle east in terms of impacting the U.S.

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Re: Election at this point

and even if america imported not a single drop of middle eastern oil, it still would matter in the US what happens in that region; supply trouble in the middle east would mean nations importing from there would seek alternative supplies and would hence also drive up the price for oil from other regions; the only thing you could say is that the US could more easily force strategic oil deliveries in times of oil emergency rather than having to buy it in the marketplace

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22 Reply by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 08-May-2008 13:04:22)

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Re: Election at this point

"The largest exporter of oil to the U.S. is Saudi Arabia. Unless they have moved Saudi since i last checked, the U.S. is receiving a significant amount of oil from the middle east."

WRONG !!

** /me thinks they may have moved Saudi Arabia to Alberta, Someone must imform Skoe.

Saudi is on the list, but we import better than 2X the oil from Mexico and Canada vs. Saudi oil.

Canada is the larges supplier.
Mexico is 2nd.
Venezual is almost equal to Saudi imports.







Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country............... Feb-08 Jan-08 YTD 2008 Feb-07 YTD 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CANADA ..............2,464 ..2,586 2,527 2,448 2,460
SAUDI ARABIA..... 1,627 ..1,503 1,563 1,207 1,394
MEXICO............... 1,327 ..1,307 1,317 1,507 1,538
VENEZUELA ..........1,131 ..1,290 1,214 1,359 1,273
NIGERIA ..............1,025 ..1,191 1,110 1,102 1,120
IRAQ...................... 780 .....543 ....658 ....325.... 433




Canada is the top
Mexico is 2nd.

If you wish to say for 2008, so far, Saudi is 2nd, fine.
But in FY 2007 and 2006 ....

Canada and Mexico were the largest Suppliers of oil to the US.


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Better disable Iranian offensive weaps ?
ROFL.

Gee, America cant possibly do that.  After all, Iran is large, Iran is huge, America is stretched, American weaps are all used up,  America doesnt have enough weaps, America cant possibly fight another front,

America cant,
World wont be happy,

yada yada.......

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23 Reply by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 08-May-2008 18:36:57)

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Re: Election at this point

Why would an individual question the facts of both BW and Yell when they are both posting the same fact ?

With out posting a link, when questioning someones statement is intellectual idiocy.
Ohh.....wait.....Skoe is a forum Mod......ahhh, got it.

It would have been wiser to research your position under these overwhelming circumstances.  big_smile

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Re: Election at this point

"With out posting a link, when questioning someones statement is intellectual idiocy."
Could I have a link for that pls.

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Re: Election at this point

I think BW is right in this one. I more or less found the same order BW used on wiki, but I agree wiki isn't much of a proof. Maybe someone should post a decent link and clearify this once and for all.

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