Re: Obama and Nationalization

you're presuming that all prisoners are entitled to survive the war, and that's not the case, because there have ALWAYS been a presumption that extreme assholes deserve to eat lead as criminals

in the case of WW2, an Allied combatant had a hundred thousand-man outfit for summary execution of unlawful combatants (MKVD) after battlefield court martial

and an 80,000 strong corps of the opponent was probably, to a man, guilty of war crimes (SS) because the corps was organized for that purpose

to say nothing of the Japanese Imperial Army which was a terror force to strongarm lesser races into obedience.

if American ran into another SS or a MKVD we could do what Patton did, let em get lined up and shot and so what

i dont understand what  you mean about "not impacting US policy", we have to actualyl break the enemy to take so many prisoners.  I don't think we're gonna anymore.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Big difference.  The motivation behind US executions you're speaking of was war crimes issues, NOT population control.  What you're stating now is that the US would need to undergo a concerted effort to execute prisoners solely on the basis that they need to reduce the population... you can't draw a comparison there..

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Obama and Nationalization

when did I say it was based on population?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

> Chris_Balsz wrote:

> for antoher, we're not likely to do so well in future wars that we have so many prisoners


That's an indicator that, barring the removal of excess prisoners (population control), we would have too many damn prisoners, hurting the war effort... seems pretty clear cut!

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Believe it or not they have nearly a full day taught to military personel during basic training of ethics.  The class is called Ethics During Combat.  They teach what is considered enemy combatants, when to fight them and when not to fight them.  What is allowed and what is disallowed under the Geneva Conventions.  And the proper treatment of prisoners, whether they are legal or illegal combatants.

Any captured combatant whether uniformed or not, is to be treated with respect under the Articles of War and the national Conventions.  Any order contravening those articles is considered an illegal order and should be reported to "higher authority".  At that time the soldier can use the chain of command until he fully believes that his/her report has reached a level in which someone will act upon the information.

Case study, one of the questions they asked was, when was it appropriate to shoot at an enemy combating parachuting into your general area.  It depends on the situation they said.  We were all confused.  He stated it was an enemy combatant parachuting on top of us.  We'd shoot.  And we would have all been court martialled.  It depends on the "situation"  Enemy paratroopers which are parachuting on your location in order to fight or hold ground against your position may be fired upon while they are in the air, or when they touch down on ground.  An enemy parachuting because his aircraft is in distress may NOT be fired upon.  He can only be fired upon if he fires first.  Reason is, he may be in distress and can be captured alive as long as they do not fight back while parachuting to safety.

It's all a matter of the situation.

Soldiers may not use any tactic considered torched earth policies.  Civilian crops and housing may not be touched.  At no time will they be destroyed or put to the torch.  Any combatant using the housing as a base of operations may be fired upon.  But purposely destroying non-combatant housing, product, or material which helps protect the livlihood of civilians is a strict no no.

Officers get a double dose of this class in ROTC and Officer Training Schools.

We're also taught the chain of command from Private to President, and we're expected to name them at all levels from squad all the way up to the Joint Chiefs.  There are roughly thirty names and ranks we're expected to memorize, and all those names are part of the chain of command.  Any broken link in that chain, we can bypass and go to the next link to report illegal orders.

Hate to say it, but terrorists are considered "enemy combatants" and if captured fall under the rules of the Geneva Conventions and Articles of War.  Does not matter what the government says or tags terrorists as.  The rules are specific.  The rules only suffer if the highest chain is broke, and then it falls to the lower links to protect the integrity of the Conventions by any means they can muster.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

31 (edited by Undeath 06-May-2010 02:47:41)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

And therefore you will lose the war when you kill 300 guerrillas and take 5 fatal casualties every day for 8 years.

shoot the damn paratrooper.  either you're repelling an airborne assault, or, you're helping the US get air supremacy by running down the cadre of experienced airmen available to the enemy.  By 1945 the average Jap pilot had about 100 hrs in teh air compared to 2000 for his American opposition, and that only hurt the Navy hwen they gave up dogfighting for controlled suicide crashees. 

anyhow you're toting a halfass rifle that's designed to maim not to kill. Also you probably wont hit the sonuvabitch because you train to make noise and scare people into holding still for the arty to slay them, not to be  Sgt York the sniper.

  And if the enemy can't stand it, he'll either give his unarmed airmen flourescent chutes, or train the [faggotry] out of them about how not to land on American trenches.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

It's funny how those claiming the moral high ground are the ones demanding that combatants not in uniform whose bombs kill women and children as often as enemy soldiers be treated as if they were uniformed enemy soldiers. Such demands are effectively demands that we regress back before rules of "civilized" warfare, removing motivations that soldiers fight soldiers [not bomb civilians as often as they do soldiers] in an understood fight.

The Geneva convention didn't simply seek to protect captives from atrocities: It sought to "civilize" warfare to some tiny extent that it reasonably can be without resulting in increased losses to "civilized" forces (accepting more losses of civilized uniformed soldiers in order to protect the lives of barbarians isn't exactly civilized, nor are policies which do so). Demanding that the rights of the Geneva Convention be given to those who observe 0 of those Conventions only removes all motivation to adhere to the Convention. How civilized and moral. You're arguing that we remove all motivation for our enemy to adhere to the Convention. That's quite a position to hold.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

33 (edited by Justinian I 06-May-2010 00:32:41)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Then again, you give enemy combatants nothing to lose by fighting you if you promise to kill all of them.

Edit: Agreed with Kemp. If they are civilized, then we will be civilized. If they are barbarians, then we should be permitted to remove those restraints if it is convenient to do so.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

You attack that straw man, Justinian I. tongue

We're not talking about executing enemy combatants, we're talking about not expending the lives and resources of uniformed soldiers to adhere to the Convention in dealing with murderous barbarians who observe 0 of said Conventions.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

gee, maybe we have to kill the enemy?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Yeah, I modified my post. It occurred to me that it may be expensive to just eliminate barbarians, but rather I should have said instead that we do not need to obey those rules if our opponent is not. That doesn't mean we rape or pillage ourselves, but that the restraints do not apply to us when they are necessary to protect our own forces.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I can't wait to see the posts which don't address my very serious point.  Arguing that Convention rights are paramount even when dealing with murderous barbarians disguised as civilians only encourages people to ignore the Convention. And until someone actually addresses this point any whining about human rights is bullshit, because arguing that policies which encourage human rights abuses (which I consider murdering civilians to be) really do not champion the cause of human rights.

I value the Geneva Convention. I value reasonable "rules of war" that civilized people can adhere to. I abhor the thought of repeating atrocious war crimes of the past. That's why I argue that we need to actually encourage adherence to the Geneva Convention in our policies, not terrorize our own people while encouraging our enemies to ignore it.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

the law of medicine is about making medicine work better

the law of commerce is about making commerce work better

but the law of war is about making war so unrewarding that we abandon it

V Kemp the US forces in WW2 had a good grip on rewarding licit war and punishing illicit war; but they are today reviled because they made war effective.  We have to punish our own guys and that's that...if we lose that just shows the other kids are mean and we are better and can ice down our black eyes knowing Mommy and Jesus love us.   Or something.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

39 (edited by Key 06-May-2010 01:02:30)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Oh geeze, it's a little hard to take a suicide bomber into military custody when he blew himself up.  And several suicide bombers have been captured live after their vests failed to explode.  They were arrested, and they were tried by a jury of their peers.  Most of the western civilizations gave them life.  However most eastern and middle-eastern cultures, put them to death, even without a trial.

Calling the enemy combatants as "guerrilla's" denote that they take orders from a higher authority, which means someone told them to go out and fight or kill, and usually they been told to go out and kill at certain locations.  Now if a suicide bomber goes out and blows himself up in a market killing women and children...if he was part of the western army, chances are he could have refused that order.  But because that soldier is a part of the jihad of an eastern barbarian state full of Achmed bastards, then it's perfectly legal in their eyes.

By the way, even though many countries are part of the United Nations...doesn't mean they ever signed or agreed to the Geneva Conventions.  Neither did any country whose government has been ousted have EVER signed the Geneva Conventions.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Jesus Saves, Chris.

Jesus isn't gonna save your butt against 9mm.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I take umbrage against US troops not trained to shoot Chris! We do not fire 1000 rounds a year from our rifles (and 800 rounds a year from the mortar) to be spray and pray soldiers

X(

We are accurate with everything except one thing, shooting lawyers in the back for dictating how wars should be fought! X(

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I offer such training. But if I post about it, I will go to prison!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

1000 rounds a year? you got 30 rounds to a magazine, that's 34 clips I got friends who shoot more than that at rabbitson on a long weekend


I read teh FM, the fire team (rifle) lays down SUPPRESSIVE FIRE so the grenadier neutralizes the target and in case of multiple or special weapons targets the platoon mortar and heavy weapons team comes into play, or the transport with its MG or cannon

the joe who can bust skulls at 600m is a specialist

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I was not a 11b I was an 11c. Mortat man, not rifle humper. Rifle humpers use a lot more ammo than we mere mortar men do. Though when I was with combat engineers we had a lot of different ammo than standard.

We train to be able to hit targets. Our form of supressive fire is kill someone, the rest are suppresed X(

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

And I busted shells up to 2 miles btw.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

46 (edited by Chris_Balsz 06-May-2010 16:22:47)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

fine, then fire phosphorus under the parachuting foe so his air-rescue teams can make pickup

better make it willy pete, that makes smoke longer

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

47 (edited by Key 06-May-2010 23:11:58)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

@ Chris

30 round clips for m16-a2 rifles.  There are also 5-10-15 round clips also.  Also is 60 round clips (thing is huge and curved and looks like a big dong).

That doesn't include training for the M60's, which are fully automatic, and soldiers are trained to fire 3 second bursts.  Which means lots of rounds flying.  With squads of 7 men.  Platoons of 30 odd.  Companies of 130-150.  Battalions, and then whole regiments.  Every soldier having to live fire range any number of weapons which are assigned specifically for them.

So yes, we fire lots and lots of ammo every year.  M16-A2's.  M60's.  Hand held grenade launchers.  Mortars.  Actual grenades.  And then you have large artillery mobile armor piercing platforms.  Fun on a bun.  I was proficient with M16's, M60's and Grenades.

Good thing we don't use Flame throwers no more, that uses a lot of a fuel.  That and nobody wants to stand next to a powder keg.

Would you like to talk about the illegal weapons now which arn't allowed in any national armory, but is allowed for private use?

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.