Topic: Obama and Nationalization

96.5% of all home loans are from our government

100% of student loans

100% of health care

66.7% of our auto companies (though they manipulate the remaining 33.3% with standards this and standards that)

They seek control of the internet through the FCC

They control 90% of media via default, but plans to subsidize that portion of the media are in final stages before moving ahead.

They gutted any incentive for donations so they can make the government the source of donations


They are nationalizing the banks, with so many bank seizures as to defy logic.


They own a significant portion of insurance services through AIG

Obama wants legislation where the government can seize 'any comapny that is (to big to fail) to important for the economy on suspicion (not proof) of the company being on shaky ground'


The school loans are already being used to shut down private universities and colleges.



So where does it stop?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

The true questions are these:
- What's the proof for those claims? Those numbers are very high and need something to back them up
- If they are true: why would the state meddle in those affairs?
- Is it necessarily a bad thing, and why?
- Are those state actions better of in private compagnies?

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

3 (edited by V.Kemp 05-May-2010 09:32:40)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Thank you for a list of undisputed socialism and upcoming tyranny.

Pansies are going to post that it stops when government controls >90% of the economy/your life, giving it sufficient power to play God and make Earth into a perfect Eden. Because that's who politicians really are, deep down: benevolent, omniscient beings. If they only had more power, they could make everything right.

If you are going to post skeptical of Einstein's skeptical view, please, I ask of you, do give us your idea of what's reasonable. And don't shy away from giving us this basic summation if it seems ridiculous to you what you just wrote; just imagine how ridiculous it seems to us that you can vote!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

-They're common knowledge.
-They're power hungry thugs. Have you ever read a history book? Lots of examples of political leaders being as much. Few of anything else.
-It's inherently tyrannical, which is not the natural state of things. If you are advocating tyranny, please explain what line of reasoning leads you to this position which goes against nature. (Nobody is born into such a feudal system owing their life and labor and belongings to an all-powerful state. If you defend such a system, please answer your own question: Why?)
-Better of in private companies? What?

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were allowed to write their own ticket on the theory they were NOT government entities; presuming that the federal government would bail them out, they both issued incredibly cheap, below market loans, AND bought up tons of other mortgages.  They became the largest mortgage companies in America.  They led to the mortgage bubble; other banks knew they could "originate" shit mortgages, loan unemployed people $400,000 for a 30-year mortgage, and once the property was transferred, sell the mortgage for the full repayment price--or at least, get their $400,000 + costs + modest profit, back from Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.  Once FHMA/FMAC went belly up, the same Congressmen who slapped aside federal regulators on the grounds that FHMA/FMAC were private entitiesi--chief among them Barney Frank, current chairman of the House Banking Committee--declared the US government was obliged to takeover 100% of their debts.  Now totally assured of federal bailout, they continue to swallow the mortgage industry.   They underwrite or directly own 96.5% of the mortgages in America.  Their total insolvency is somewhere in excess of $600 billion.

People talk about the "social value" of corporations and mention jobs and benefits.  Another social value is compartmentalization of failure.  Left to fall, in a PROPER capitalist system, FHMA/FMAC would have been destroyed, and major investors would have been punished.  No honest homeowner would have been hurt if they could meet their loan terms of a specific payment over 360 months-- you can't call a mortgage due early in any state.  Instead they continue to wreck the housing market and jeopardize the dollar.   Another claim against "capitalists" who oppose bailouts is that we only offer "ideology".  The notion the US dollar is worth goods and services is "ideology" and if the Treasury has to bail out every white collar thief in America, it ain't worth shit.


Student loans were nationalized this spring in the same week Obamacare passed.  The federal government issues loans now.

We have 3 remaining "American" auto companies, Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors; the Obama administration "loaned" Chrysler money in return for an equity share, and did the same to General Motors, to the extent that the US government owns over 60% of GM.

The FCC regulation of the Internet, and the discretionary power of the Treasury Secretary to seize companies, which, in the opinion of the Secretary, aren't doing well enough, is in the "wall street reform bill" coming through the senate.  to have an informed opinion the Secretary is to be allowed total access to everybody's financial records, by way of the banks.

Monopoly is never "good".  And especially not government monopolies, which do not have to function efficiently, or please most customers, or even avoid insolvency.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Honestly he does look a foo quesrioning all of my posts doesn't he?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

7 (edited by tommie 05-May-2010 13:23:01)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

yes your government is taking over every aspect of you life einstein be very afraid.

and yes it's probably all obama's doing( this is the sarcasm bit)

come on. those things are going on wa ylonger then obama has been president you fool. this must be one of your weakest plots to blame everything on obama.

I bet you would not post this info if bush was still president. then it would be casually overlooked.

so yeah perhaps obama should change the policy here and if he doesn't he's also in fault in my eyes. but no way in hell is it all his doing. he can continue the trend but he sure as hell isn't the one who started it.

your gov has been getting bigger and bigger tastes of the power of control. bush sure as hell proved that when he decided to bend the rules conserning the convention of geneva involving human rights.

I'm guessing watergate schandal can be blamed towards obama's forfathers? and the assasination of nixon good god.
I see it's all a plot. for the past generations obama's family and forfathers have strived for this momen. einstein you're a genius for discovering this and you will probably be assasinated soon. so nice knowing you( again bit of sarcasm)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I jumped on Bush for some of his stuff including the bail outs.


This was a situation where if you summed up control of US under Bush it was 5%, under Obama it is racing to 90%

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

> Einstein wrote:

> I jumped on Bush for some of his stuff including the bail outs.


This was a situation where if you summed up control of US under Bush it was 5%, under Obama it is racing to 90%


so shipping ppl to cuba in order to be able to violate their rights based almost purely on the reason that they are muslim and remained in contact with family in iraq/afghanistan/iran is only trying to control ppl( in this case manipulating them into a confession) 5% but buying a few stockshares and giving donations is evil?

sure there prob are alterior motives but come on. blaming all this on obama is just rediculous and very shortsighted.

obama is the president yes but you're a fool if you think beign the president of us puts you in an all powerfull seat. those times have passed ever since the foundign fathers.

fbi/cia/ spec ops, espionnage. etc have all been in use long before you could even talke about there ever being a black president or a female president. don't go blaming obama for those just cause you don't like he won the elections fair and sqaure till stated otherwhise. which off course will never happen.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

If I goto Cuba, and shoot at them, I get tortured.

If I illegally immigrate to Mexico I go to jail for two years then deported.

If I accidently stray in Syria, Iran, N. Korea or China I get arrested and held for a long time (and since I am a Republican Clinton won't save me).

If I seize a French ship, and the French catch me I do not get the rights of a Frenchman when brought to France for trial.

If I terrorize I Sudan, and ANY NATION CATCHES ME I only get rights equal to a US Citizen if US Forces were the ones to catch me.

If I was a terrorist out of uniform then any nation that catches me has the right to summarily execute me.




Why does the United States have to be the exeption and give extroidinary rights to others? Why? Be very clear, very verbose, and as intelligent sounding as you can be.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Actually if you were a Somali pirate you can be hung until you were dead dead dead.  It's still on the laws of the high seas books in many nations.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

12 (edited by [TI] Sitting Duck 05-May-2010 20:40:08)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Are you suggesting that the United States, land of freedom, opportunity and protector of the weak should base it's justice and human rights policies on those of Syria, North Korea, China and Sudan?

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Obama and Nationalization

>>so shipping ppl to cuba in order to be able to violate their rights<<

What rights? They're not US citizens. Most of their countries of origins they would be tortured if returned to (so presumably that's even less rights than being held captive). I know you're appreciative of the values of the US in not sending them back to be tortured. Please do inform us what rights you are referring to. And they do not meet the requirements to get any rights out of Geneva, so don't claim that's it. Please advise.

>> based almost purely on the reason that they are muslim and remained in contact with family in iraq/afghanistan/iran<<

Please substantiate this claim. There are many Muslims in this country who keep in touch with family abroad. We only detain the ones who want to kill us.

>>Are you suggesting that the United States, land of freedom, opportunity and protector of the weak should base it's justice and human rights policies on those of Syria, North Korea, China and Sudan?<<

He's pointing out that the US alone ties its own hands in dealing with trash that wants to murder US civilians. Why did you only mention those 4 nations? Why not forget those 4, and respond to the other nations which the US goes above and beyond tying its own hands in comparison to? Point too well made? tongue

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Obama and Nationalization

The other ones Flint mentions are Mexico, Cuba and France. His point is not well made at all. He doesn't lay out the differences between the US law and the laws of the countries he is comparing to. Importantly he doesn't explore the consequences of either the US laws or the laws of any of those countries. Flint implies that the US should mimic certain countries in justice and human rights laws.

I haven't actually expressed an opinion of my own or sought to disagree to any point well made or not, but I asked a question seeking to clarify Flint's opinion.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Wrong entirely.


The point is simple:


Only the United States, ONLY THE UNITED STATES, treats foriegners who commit terrorist acts, and/or piracy, as if that person enjoys the full rights of civilians of the nation who captured them.

ONLY THE UNITED STATES accepts illegal aliens living in it's nation, all due of course to Democrats.



This is NOT to be purposely mistaken with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

This is NOT to be purposely mistaken with LEGAL COMBATANTS.

This is NOT to be mistaken purposely with giving no rights.

I say we accept the standard of ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH before we accept the standards the Democrats have foisted upon us. Even the draconian nations have better policies regarding illegal aliens and terrorists than we do!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

What is your definition of a legal combatant? And who are you referring to?

Also, illegal immigration is a problem all over the western world.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Obama and Nationalization

uniformed regular of a recognized national state, and that's it

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

18 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 05-May-2010 22:32:30)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

So during the Korean war, Chinese uniformed forces were illegal combatants?

How about Iran's military?

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19 (edited by Chris_Balsz 05-May-2010 22:57:30)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

United Nations may have recognized China by then, if not, not

and Iran army would be; Republican Guard might not, because they're not "regulars"

we recongize the Islamic Republic, we just don't have formal relations

although last two PResidents have been wimpy

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

China was definitely not recognized by the UN at the time, as Taiwan held their seat.


Doesn't that create some problems, in that people could lose all rights to POW status just by having a nation/coalition cease to recognize... their enemy?

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21 (edited by Justinian I 05-May-2010 22:59:07)

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I can't really comment, because what I would say depends on the credibility of the facts. And right now, I am not convinced of their truth.

But I will say that I want to live next to civilized, educated people with professional degrees or small business owners. This can be guaranteed by the housing prices of my neighborhood. Likewise, living nearby poor people can be guaranteed by the low prices of ghetto neighborhoods. I like it this way, and the idea of diversifying neighborhoods makes me feel uneasy, and is clearly actually driven by profit.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

for one thing our side is a bunch of pussies and would give them a trial in NYC anyhow

for antoher, we're not likely to do so well in future wars that we have so many prisoners

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

I think War Honor should be two sided. If you both agree to minimize the negative effects of war, then great. But if not, anything goes.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

Furthermore

The UN is not a super-national authority. We are not all neighbors subject to the authority of the UN. The UN is more like a town meeting place, and the only effective authority it has comes from coalitions of neighbors. But if a neighbor or coalition of neighbors decides to say "F U," and no counter coalition can be raised to enforce its will, then there's frankly nothing the UN can do about it.

Re: Obama and Nationalization

> Chris_Balsz wrote:

> for one thing our side is a bunch of pussies and would give them a trial in NYC anyhow

for antoher, we're not likely to do so well in future wars that we have so many prisoners




In regards to the first, a stance of "well, we could eliminate all your rights, but we probably won't because we're wimps" is insufficient because it creates the moral framework that violating all rights in those instances is just.  For you to win that this stance is good, you have to assume a world in which none of those rights are recognized first, since that is very much a distinct possibility in such a world anyway.



In regards to the second, you're in a double-bind:

Either that would impact US policy, in which case you contradict the first statement, and you prove that the US will probably enact a massive genocide of enemies during war... that's bad...

Or that wouldn't impact US policy, at which point it doesn't really matter, and I have my argument unanswered...

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