Re: Why are poor people poor?

Why don't we just end it at "You were born poor. You will be poor. You will die poor." from the middle ages? Makes life easier, no? People have to go and try to better themselves compared to the others. Why not just be happy with your lot in life?

Insane Lemming of Drama Queens and Other Hyperbolical People

1431 ftw

102

Re: Why are poor people poor?

My lot in life is to win the lottery.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

103 (edited by xeno syndicated 10-Apr-2010 14:43:05)

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Zarf,

"they [specializations] are only a byproduct of the creation of other social institutions you mentioned, and thus a reason why the other institutions thrived"

I'm glad you recognize that institutions caused specialization of labor and thus your more urbanized society and that this in turn further restructured institutions which thus further restructured specialized labor and urbanization. 

But was this all a random chain reaction beginning with the first institutions, or was there some sort of guidance or control of the chain reaction?  Sadly, the structure of the first institutions did in fact come to define the nature of our current society, more than most understand.   Moreover, the structure of our current institutions did not come about solely as a result of advancing utilitarian benefit to society as a whole.  In most examples of the restructuring of institutions, it occurred by design, according to the self-interest of those in control of the power to restructure said institutions.

First, to assume there was no design in the restructuring of institutions would be to assume there was no control over those institutions being restructured.   And yet the very structure of institutions themselves requires there to be a centralized government in control of institutions in order for them to function or, for that matter, to be restructured.  How, as an example, could there be a military without a chain of command, and, for that matter, how could that military modernize without a chain of command to issue its modernization?

Now, this brings us to the question of how often leaders of institutions have restructured institutions according to their perceived notion of the greater good to society at large and how often they have restructured said institutions for the betterment of their own (or decedents') self-interests. Weren't the Pharaohs more concerned with the grandeur of their Pyramids than the well-being of the slaves they drove to construct them?  Likewise, did the ancient Grecian philosophers grant their women and their slaves the same voting privileges (and thus power to restructure institutions of ancient Grecian society) as they themselves employed?  Were feudal peasants really as empowered to affect change to their societal institutions as the feudal lords who controlled them?  Of course not.

Moreover, there are ample historical examples of when the restructuring of institutions of a given society occurred, it was done so in large part to pursue perceived benefits to those in control and not in pursuit of a utilitarian 'greater good' of society as a whole: ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, Christian-dome, ancient Chinese dynasties, French Revolution, Russian Revolution, American Revolution, etc..  In all examples I can think of, it was the ones who were in control of the most influential institution of all, the military, which restructured that society's institutions according to their own (the victors') self-interest.

...

Have to go and do something else.

Anyway, I doubt there was much evolution of society.  I see it as simply having been designed by the victors, for better or worse, not necessarily better, and, actually, ultimately, probably for the worse overall.

edited for clarity and typos

Re: Why are poor people poor?

[Closed]

see

Why are rich people rich AND why are poor people poor? by xeno syndicated

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Why are poor people poor?

[Reopened]

..based on Zarf's request.

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Xeno:

1: Who created the institutions you speak of?  What force made them come into being?
2: How come whenever one institution dies and a new one is created, the same system of specialization of labor continues to exist?
3: Name a society that did not have the institutions of which you speak, yet was able to prove itself more efficient than an equivalent society with said organizing institutions.
4: In fact, give me your #1 best example of the greatest non-institutionalized society in history...

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

107 (edited by xeno syndicated 13-Apr-2010 07:48:05)

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Zarf,

I am not claiming that there as never been some institutions that arose to serve the greater good of a given society.  Nor am I saying that the first institutions did not arise to do so either.  What I am saying is that in the rare event when institutions came about due to their utilitarian benefits to society as a whole, they were almost always infiltrated and became controlled by those whose primary interest in controlling those institutions was self-serving.  In modern times, in order to limit the corruption of our institutions, another institution, the judiciary, was instated.  However, it in and of itself is insufficient in preventing any and all corruption of institutions, and, moreover, what institution came about to monitor corruption of the judicial system itself?  The theory is that the power of legislative and executive branches of democratic government is mediated by the judiciary and vice versa.  How has that been working out in preventing corruption of said institutions?  In my opinion, not so well.

108

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Ideals are built by idealised men.  Institutions are built upon corruption of the idea.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: Why are poor people poor?

some people know

some people teach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why are poor people poor?

And some people DO!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

111 (edited by You_Fool 22-Apr-2010 02:55:45)

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Some people, but not you

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Let's check that theory

1) got elected -  check
2) got high paying job - check
3) got past depression issues and got math recognized as a functionable, yet different compression system (minus hype) - check
4) got to MIT - saving up
5) Run for major office - replanned for 2012

Sounds like I am on track with my goals and such...

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

113 (edited by xeno syndicated 22-Apr-2010 03:47:26)

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Firstly, is the corruption of ideals and thus the corruption of the institutions which represent those ideals is inevitable?

Secondly, if it is inevitable, and if in fact it is from the corruption of those institutions that poverty results, isn't a certain amount of poverty also inevitable? 

If the above is all true, there would be a direct proportional correlation between the level of corruption of a given society's institutions and the level of poverty suffered by that society. Would it not, therefore, be reasonable to assume that by diminishing the level of corruption of said ideals and corruption of said representative institutions that the level of poverty within a society would also be diminished?  If so, then our recourse is to implement cultural, legal, and social mechanisms which limit corruption of ideals and the institutions built upon those ideals.

However, this is all to assume that the corruption of ideals and corruption of institutions is NOT ultimately inevitable.  Is it really simply a matter of a there being a fixedly depraved human nature incapable of transcendence from a tendency to corrupt and sabotage ideals to maintaining and fulfilling ideals?  In other words, how do we know it is not possible to improve human nature?

The Church would have us believe that human nature is in fact depraved and incapable of transcendence, without, of course, God's grace, forgiveness of sins through belief in the death and resurrection of Christ.  Much the same could be said of the premises of the other major world religions: that without such and such belief in such and such scripture / god-head, human nature is depraved, lost, incapable of unfettered idealistic endeavors.  But religions' efforts at converting human nature from destructive saboteur to creative savant has proven to be just as destructive and sabotaging as wars wrought by the most villainous militaristic empires.

We are left with the questions:

If human nature can be improved, how can it be improved so as to limit the corruption of ideals and their representative institutions?

If human nature cannot be improved, what cultural, legal, social mechanisms are in place and, in the future, may be put in place to limit the corruption of ideals and their representative institutions?

Re: Why are poor people poor?

lets look:

1) Full of hot air - check
2) Deluded - check
3) over inflated oppinion of oneself - check
4) inabiltiy to see past ones own inccorrect assumptions - check
5) idiotic concepts of grandeur - check

yes i was right about you flint...excellent

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

115 (edited by BiefstukFriet 22-Apr-2010 06:49:56)

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Poor people stay poor because they're to dumb or unwilling to properly manage their finances. (debt.)

Je maintiendrai

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Why is there debt inb the first place? Because there is money.... why is there money? Because of a lack of infinite resources meaning that there needs to be a measure of how the finite resources are distributed among the people. How does this lead to poverty? Because there is inherant greed in people and are un-willing to go with less to ensure others have more.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Why are poor people poor?

Well that don't hold uo, if there were just greed there wouldn't be any debt. There is debt because there is trust and hope. If I didn't trust you or hope I'd get paid I wouldn't let you owe me.

You can be poor without debt, but an american with debts is a lot better off than somebody in somalia who owes nobody yet has nothing.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.