Topic: Ice age claim angers scientists

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2225980.htm

By Emily Bourke




It might be an unpopular view but Dr Phil Chapman is sticking to it. The geophysicist and former NASA astronaut says figures from four separate agencies show the global temperature dropped noticeably during 2007 and that the globe could now be returning to an ice age.

"All the people who monitor the world's global temperature say that the temperature fell by something like 0.7 degrees Centigrade," he told PM.

"We're talking about a very large drop that cancels out all the increase since 1930.

"If this continues, then global warming will have to be, we'll have to admit that it's over."

He says the sun and sunspot changes have a bigger influence on the climate compared to carbon dioxide.

"The variations in the number of sunspots and the time when they occur, how rapidly they build up, has a close correlation with previous changes in climate, in particularly back around 1700 and again around 1790 when the sunspot cycle was delayed and those were two times it was extremely cold," he said.

So can you see a repeat of that happening now with the few number of sunspots that have been detected?

"It's that coincidence between sudden rapid drop in global temperature in the last year and the lack of sunspots which makes it seem a little worrying," he said.

While he won't commit to a date, Dr Chapman says an ice age is on the horizon.

"If the ice age comes, it will come, it certainly will come but we don't know whether it's started already or whether it is going to be a thousand years from now, we're probably OK but you can't be certain, that's all," he said.

Dr Chapman says it is hard to think of what the world can do, other than trying to warm the planet.

"I think we should have an open mind on the subject and not rush around doing things on the assumption that it's going to get warmer when in fact it's going to be cooler," he said.

"It may be that we should be pumping out all the carbon dioxide we possibly can in order to try and keep the temperature up."

David Karoly from Melbourne University's School of Earth Sciences is outraged.

"This is not science. This is misinterpretation or misrepresentation and mis-communication of the factors that influence global temperature," he said.

"It appears to be an opinion of Phil Chapman and he's welcome to his opinion, but in terms of climate variations and an approaching ice age, he is sadly misinformed.

"Yes, the climate system did cool from January 2007 to January 2008 quite dramatically. That cooling was associated with changes in the ocean temperatures in the Pacific, a well known phenomenon, the El Nino to La Nina switch. It isn't unprecedented."

But he says it is not due to sunspot activity.

"Sunspot variations do not lead to the sorts of temperature variations seen from January 2007 to 2008," he said.

"They don't lead to those large temperature variations, even on an 11-year sunspot cycle.

"And so in terms of increasing greenhouse gases, we can also see that effect because the most recent La Nina, the current La Nina, is warmer than earlier La Nina episodes of the same strength.

"We're actually seeing a warming even in these cool periods associated with La Nina."

Dr Graeme Pearman is a climate scientist and past chief of atmospheric research at the CSIRO.

He says the doubt over global warming and its causes is not reasonable and he warns Dr Chapman's wait-and-see approach is dangerous.

"And what science has seen over the last six months or so are changes that are occurring that are further advanced than we would like," he said.

"And so I think there is a high probability, a much higher probability than his scenario coming true, that we're going to look back and rue the fact that we didn't act earlier.

"We must get on with trying to slow down the growth of our emissions as a global community and as an Australian community as soon as possible."

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

I feel like a lazy, uneducated, dumb person but can you sumarise this one for me? I have 2 jobs and evening school so I can't read very long intros unless I read nothing else. Nothing personal to you.

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Since he's a yank that pretty much leaves him out of both the global and aussie community

Btw love that "outraged" spasm: "yes its cool! But it's a WARM cool!"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

I have been informing people on occasion in real life here that we are entering a mini-ice age for a while now. The science has shown this to be true, if you follow the science properly.

The short and skinny is this:

The sun has 2 currents running through it. These currents run a stable predictable course. These currents can be predicted well in advance for their cycles and the math has been always correct since it was developed. These currents have dramatically down-shifted.

The effect is a reduction in solar wind, a reduction in solar events of all sorts, and an increase therefore of cosmic radiation.

Cosmic radiation has been proven by a group of scientists to be deeply involved in the formation of clouds. It helps bind the water molecules together.

The effect will result in a definite cool down, and possibly even a mini-ice age similar to the last ice age we had.

The real scientists who have all along contended global warming was not man made have made many more notes about this weather season than is summarized there.


Also I would LOVE TO NOTE THE FOLLOWING:


Your top scientists who 'created' the idea of global warming have shied away from that word for 2, almost 3 years now. They say climate change every time and slap down anyone trying to associate them with the term global warming, or who even brings up the name. Only the hardcore quacks who don't know any science at all keep up with the term 'global warming' now. The hope of the scientists who created the hysteria of global warming is that there will be two possible ways for this fallacy to end. One is they keep a new golden goose egg under the term "climate change" and the other is that if they can't keep the golden goose egg situation they can blame those who still adhere to the term global warming as the people who pushed the agenda so hard they had to keep up and keep their silence or risk losing their jobs.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

My children grew up on global warming scares from the Academia Elite.

By the time they hit college......Christ, my first hits in 4 years.....they will be full into what I grew up with....the Ice age is coming.

Gotta love the Enviro-wacko left.  Academia is the first doom sayers of the left, followed by the media and then hollywood, the lap dogs that will believe anything that makes them look smart.......as long as they have a script.  :0

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

We must commit NOW to sustained submarine fusion explosions at the poles to melt the ice caps!

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

7 (edited by The Dragon Agh 01-May-2008 10:24:55)

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Hmm weird. 1 guy says something that you agree with and we get comments like that is the sole truth:

Einstein
I have been informing people on occasion in real life here that we are entering a mini-ice age for a while now. The science has shown this to be true, if you follow the science properly.

TheYell
We must commit NOW to sustained submarine fusion explosions at the poles to melt the ice caps!



I dunno really... weird people though.
It's like 99 guys saying "It's like this!", you don't agree cause it doesn't suit you, and then 1 guy says "Aha! no I bet it's like this!" and you go "aha! I told you so!". Again, weird people.

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

I wonder if the temperature had been going UP 0.7degrees the warmers and their media would still call it a temporary glitch.

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Silence! Get back in line with the global community!

Dragon agh

If we didnt point out any source agreeing with us we would be accused of not having any
And in science there is certainly "untruth" ie wrong theories and if the earth doesnt keep getting hotter then global warming can join phrenology and phlogiston in the musuem of farce

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Funny: "A former NASA astronaut fears Earth could be headed for a new ice age."
So it's a former astronaut vs... the scientists. Who to trust in a matter of science?

Ofc it might not happen, that's always a posibility. But it will probably happen. And basing your strong belief on what an astronaut says... clever...?

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Many of our astronauts are ph.ds so they understand what data they're getting

We sent geologists to the moon and they're astronauts now

Term just means they've been in space. They apply expertise to fields like robotics and meteorology and nutrition

Most our astronauts aren't pilots or engineers of the spacecraft

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

'Cosmic radiation has been proven by a group of scientists to be deeply involved in the formation of clouds. It helps bind the water molecules together.

The effect will result in a definite cool down, and possibly even a mini-ice age similar to the last ice age we had.'

I dont see how you can make that inference. This is more of an assumption than the man-made climate change agenda.
'Global warming' is also a misconceived term. Too much emphasis is put on the fact that the temperature is rising and not on the impact of such a change.

David Karoly is entitled to be outraged, hes had to put up with enough idiots in his time.

Destiny is only for those too own to make their fate weak.

~ Geese

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

We get a seasonal shift for one year and based on that one year enough evidence has been gathered to support a claim that we hare heading towards an Ice Age?
Is it just me or does it sound stupid when one writes it like this?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Fokker, they WANT to belive it, so any claim by anyone makes them certain that they are correct. And this no matter who it is. Weird people as I said.

Also, if he was a "scientist" then they should have added that title to give his statement more weight.

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Dr Phil Chapman...The geophysicist and former NASA astronaut"

"We get a seasonal shift for one year and based on that one year enough evidence has been gathered to support a claim that we hare heading towards an Ice Age?"

no, aren't you aware that many climatologists said we were heading into an Ice Age thirty years ago?

"Fokker, they WANT to belive it, so any claim by anyone makes them certain that they are correct. And this no matter who it is. Weird people as I said."

Doesn't that also apply to all ecology minded people who don't have a PHd?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

16 (edited by The Dragon Agh 01-May-2008 23:00:43)

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

TheYell, there are 2 different views. Either it's all going to hell (warm...) in which case if we fix it we can make it better. Or it's the "nothing will happen" in which case we won't do anything and if it happens... well then it happens.

For me the "let's do something to make sure it won't happen" beats the "meh, it won't happen" attitude.

Thus, supporting the "don't do anything" opinion based on one persons views, is for me "weird".

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

I'm not getting into one of these circular debates again because it is a waste of time. Without really getting into the views as such, I just wanted to make some comments on the flaws in people's arguments.

A variation from one year to the next is not really a long term trend is it? Year on year on year on year on year on year on year on year is a long term trend. In the report posted at the start of the thread there are two different viewpoints, one that a cooling over the past year is indication of going into an ice age, and one that the cooling is completely expected as part of the south pacific el nino cycle. How come people only seem to read/pay attention to the part they agree with?

I think the important thing to note is who is saying what. A "geophysicist" is very much not the same as a "climatologist".

The claim that 30 years ago climatologists were wrong is really neither here nor there. To take an extreme example, a thousand years ago the wisest men in the world might have told you the Earth was flat. Does this mean we should now not believe it when informed people tell that the Earth is round? People draw the best conclusions they have from the evidence they have at the time, and as science is a progression of advancing knowledge, we would hope that scientific conclusions reached today would be more accurate than those reached thirty years ago. Whether or not you choose to believe scientific opinion is up to you, but your argument needs to address the evidence presented to you, not just that "scientists have been wrong before".

Einstein, can you verify where the term "global warming" actually came from? Did it come from science or from the media? The distinction between "global warming" and "climate change" is that global warming is a conclusion. It would be wrong and thoroughly unscientific to start a study saying "I will be studying global warming" because you have reached your conclusion before starting your research, which is an obvious bias =/.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

It's actually funny, you put the economy in one part and then the earth in the other and need to calculate. But yea I guess most people do.
You could for example:
Use less electricity, lightbulbs? Why not?
Buy stuff that's going to hold for a long time instead of crappy stuff.
Buy a car that uses far less gasoline (means not the enormous american cars).
Force the companies to reduce their CO2... like we have in the EU.
.......
.......
There are loads of things to do.
I doubt they would ruin your economy though...

I dunno, but gasoline won't be around for too much longer so changing to another source isn't really a bad thing now is it?

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

I have been standing by the cooling of Earth since around July of last year. Pity the old forum is gone.

Science is showing this is not going to be a short term change.

Lars had a unique guest on the other night. His guest talked of Carbon Dioxide and listed things other scientists are ignoring. A class of plankton which thrives on higher carbon dioxide counts, which will increase in the next few years our ocean life to higher levels. Also how the circle of aquatic life incorporates a natural carbon sink which is, and will be still, pulling masses of carbon to the bottom of the ocean. Also how plant life thrives in a higher carbon dioxide environment and how they will put carbon into the ground naturally in their trade off for nitrogen sources.

And there are other factors... but no one is paying attention to those. No it's hysteria driven, profit motivated, and teacher enforced.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

So you think the Earth will cool based on... Plants? Plankton? Three months of temperature data from this year? The apparent seasonal shift of winter into spring?

Not that I care, whatever happens my country will get very cold very fast. Maybe I'll go skiing in Scotland when I retire?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

i was just thinking, you know how villans and superheros tend to mimic the current threat at the time...

i.e. spider man was first bitten by a radioactive spider, the hulk was originally using something radioactive (this was back when the nuclear industry was a major issue.) and these days its become spider man bitten by a genetically modified spider, hulk genetically modified himself (coz GM is a big issue atm...) now i can see the next line up, we will have 'global warming man' or 'ice age man' bitten by a spider who was exposed to either of the above.... -_-

The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

@Blizzard

Iron man affected by Iraq?

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

actually on that note, instead of nuclear threats there will be terrorist attacks that will melt the polar ice caps etc...

The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

Um, why would a "terrorist" do something that would hurt his/her own people more then anyone (it's already quite hot in most of those countries)? Stupid.

And I am wondering what Einstein is on about when he talks about "hysteria" about the global warming.
I mean, what reason would every scientist in the world (except one?) share that would make them all lie about this?
And what reason is there that we wouldn't trust the scientist in this matter of science?

I am really curiuos.

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Ice age claim angers scientists

>>I mean, what reason would every scientist in the world (except one?) share that would make them all lie about this?<<

it isn't all but one.  Not by a long shot.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.