Topic: A new look at alternative power

Recently Obama has been pushing nuclear, which is quite the surprise, until you can tell someone finally gave the boy some cold hard facts.

A quick look at capacity by energy source at the US EIA shows there are 1445 coal plants with a capacity of 337,300 MW, whereas there are 104 nuclear stations with a capacity of 106,147 MW. About 50% of electricity comes from coal and about 20% from nuclear. It would take 4 to 5 coal plants to replace a nuclear plant. How many windmills would it take?

In one second of bright sunlight, a one square meter surface receives 1 kJ. A one square meter silicon photovoltaic cell is about 20% efficient, so would produce 200 W in continuous bright sunshine. So an active area 1 km wide and 5 km long could produce the equivalent of a nuclear plant when the Sun is shining brightly. Not that unthinkable until you consider that the entire World's production of silicon wafers is just over 5 square km. It would take over 300 years of the entire World's current silicon wafer production to replace the coal plants in just the US.

But that math is far from actually correct... we need to look at land space needed in full reality...

Taking a real world example of the 14 Megawatt photovoltaic installation at Nellis AFB which was completed 2 years ago.

Peak power output is 155.6 Watts / sq meter of collector area.
Average daily power output is only 31 Watts / sq meter of collector area.
It takes 6.33 sq meters of land for every square meter of collector.
Average power output per land area is only 5 W/ sq meter.

... When the sun is shining...


It's even worse than that, if you actually want power when the sun isn't shining. You then have to factor in conversion losses to store the energy in some form, and losses again to recover it.

High-efficiency batteries are far too expensive for such a task, and systems like molten-salt heat storage wind up wasting 50% or more the energy stored.


I'd also like to add that, each and every day, US  coal  plants release more radioactivity into the air and water than the combined total of all 'leaks' US reactors have had since 1950.

And they'll do it again tomorrow. And the day after that. And the day after that again. All from the uranium, radium, and thorium found naturally in coal ash.


Compared to nuclear, wind isn't even that clean. To build enough of these 30-story tall towers to power the nation would require diverting a majority of the entire world's steel production, as well as gargantuan amounts of concrete, copper, and other resources. Then do it all over again in 30 years, when the turbines wear out.

To construct, nuclear plants use about 1/5 the concrete and 1/10 the steel as wind, per MWh generated. Plus they last 2-3 times as long.

Worse for wind is the actual death statistics... Wind has killed about a half dozen people. Not one death has been done by US Nuclear power. The average 'leak' has been for far less radiation than you will find in your granite table top.


A wind farm kills birds also.. Lots of birds. A 'surprising cost' has been dead bird removal.




-Nuclear fusion will be the next generation of nuclear energy in that it is extremely efficient and clean, but suffers from drawbacks exclusive to itself. Unlike nuclear fission, nuclear fusion irradiates the components that contain the reaction. The reaction is also very delicate and requires enormous amounts of power to kick start, although that very same delicacy is highly advantageous in the event of an accident (the reaction immediately stops, unlike fission). Another unfortunate disadvantage is that you can expect fusion technology to be ridiculously expensive.




The answer's are easy.



We have an abundance of natural gas, oil, oil shale, coal, and nuclear fuels. We can use this in a large way for not decades as some would say, not a mere hundred years, but HUNDREDS of years. Just the United States alone has enough reserves to fuel the world for 300 years at current consumption. JUST THE UNITED STATES ALONE! And that's not including nuclear power... The United States has enough nuclear materials for a BILLION YEARS at DOUBLE the current power usage of the entire world.



Then there is the argument to fix our grid...

Line losses in the US average about 7.5%. Even if you could build a zero-cost superconducting grid, you couldn't save more than that. And the costs to the grid would be scary indeed.





So when you think of alternatives think this:


1) Wind
Kills birds
Needs to much metal and other materials
Not enough windy location for our needs anyhow


2) Solar
Not enough production until 300 years gone by...
Needs sunny locations
Takes up huge swaths of land


3) Fission
Cost effective
long lasting
Safe


4) Fusion
Expensive
not mastered yet
delicate
Safe



I would say, any investment in alternative power MUST go into nuclear power, and nothing else.

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2 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 16-Mar-2010 06:14:55)

Re: A new look at alternative power

Easy: Mix sources, depending on locations.


Desert regions, like where Nellis AFB is, are better able to handle solar energy.  But you obviously wouldn't want to make that the national standard... Alaska would be screwed.


In addition, you forgot about a couple other energy sources:
A: Geothermal... a personal favorite of mine... pretty simple, although it won't generate much electricity.  But it helps!
B: Biogas.
This is a big one, and one I honestly think should be pursued long before other technologies (and yes, the technology exists... we've been doing this for a LONG time).  Currently, the American Midwest is filled with huge animal farms that take little care to clean up after themselves.  Having 1,000 cows in an area of maybe a few square miles causes farms to collect a ton of manure with nothing to do with it.  Federal law requires that these farms contain the waste, which they do... by creating giant pools of crap, and putting a lid on it.  These pools of waste are extremely dangerous to surrounding communities (and possibly to the world), as they create threats such as a huge reduction in land values surrounding the region, risks of leaks that can seep into surrounding ecosystems, and the threat of drug-resistant bacteria (these animals are normally given large doses of antibiotics in order to stay healthy... the antibiotics remain in the waste pools, as well as bacteria in the pool that can develop resistances).

In addition, these pools leak a dangerous gas: methane.  First of all, it's combustible, which means it makes the containment unit unstable and susceptible to big accidents. Second, I know you don't buy the theory, Flint, but methane is considered to be a greenhouse gas 21 times more powerful than carbon dioxide (short term... excess carbon dioxide is thought to linger in the atmosphere longer).  That being said, methane can be held accountable at least for some portion of short term shifts in temperature.  While carbon dioxide-induced global warming may be bad, methane-produced climate change is probably worse because it's volatile.

The solution?  A number of these farms have constructed facilities called anaerobic biodigesters.  These systems will take in animal waste (or human waste for those who want to apply this to urban sewage systems and possibly help prevent water pollution) and collect the methane from the waste.  The methane becomes a fuel source, leaving behind a much smaller load of manure that can then be sold to surrounding farms as fertilizer (cleaned of bacteria, and removed of bad smelling methane).  The remains are much easier to deal with, and it's also generated electricity.

Here's the catch: Currently, the system doesn't produce energy efficient enough to balance out, relative to fossil fuel prices, although the systems do generate profits.  In this case this is one energy source that should be further subsidized (some subsidies exist under current laws, but since the subsidy is just for any waste disposal, there is no added incentive to construct biodigesters as opposed to throwing the waste into a sealed pool), simply because it removes some ecological harms done by industrial agricultural methods.

Note: Unlike other energy sources, biodigesters aren't turning good resources into dangerous resources.  Quite the opposite, the process is removing waste that could be significantly damaging to humans and to the ecosystem, and turning it into more manageable waste.


Sound neat?  tongue

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Re: A new look at alternative power

As Zarf said, we need every source of power. We should be spending money developing fusion power. Our government in it's infinite wisdom denied funding for our nuclear fusion project so we were forces to pinch in with the Europeans with their international project in France. >.<

I don't think anyone is doubting that the future of energy beyond what we have now is Fusion.

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Re: A new look at alternative power

We don't want Fusion power.  We want Controlled Fusion Power.  There is a differance.

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Re: A new look at alternative power

Oh, that's right!  Because I'm sure someone's going to mix the two up and develop a fusion power plant by creating a star nearby!

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Re: A new look at alternative power

Turning Jupiter into a micro star might be a good option in about 1000 years or so when we develop the tech to do it. ^.^

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Re: A new look at alternative power

Since the energy from star-based fusion emits in all directions, we would need to surround the planet with solar energy collectors first...

That would be awesome!  A mini-Dyson Sphere!  smile

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Re: A new look at alternative power

> Geothermal... a personal favorite of mine... pretty simple, although
> it won't generate much electricity.

Why do you say that?

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Re: A new look at alternative power

Because normally, you need a good amount of geological activity for the power source to work.  I will grant, I could easily be wrong about that.  Don't take me to heart about the effectiveness of the energy source.  I just wanted to highlight that it exists.  tongue

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Re: A new look at alternative power

Geothermal does exist, but it is very much reliant upon the location of existing thermal heat... tongue


So we cannot count on it to replace all the energy we use unless we tap into the planets core...


Biogas...

I have been looking at that. The left is screaming bloody murder about biogas due to the huge amounts of drinking water it consumes. They really are not going to let it replace oil, I can tell you that... this, when it gets big enough, will be attacked worse than Oil.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
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Re: A new look at alternative power

I love nuclear... the Toshiba garage sized power plant for a neighborhood is simple awesome. A lithium Ion nuclear reactor can never go critical.. it's a wonderful Japanese invention.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A new look at alternative power

i thought i have heard that drill technology has improved to the point, that they can drill deep enough to create geothermal plants just about anywhere...

13 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 17-Mar-2010 01:47:03)

Re: A new look at alternative power

I don't really know regarding geothermal... perhaps find some links online to prove it either way, guys?

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Re: A new look at alternative power

1) Wind
Kills birds

^^ lol

Re: A new look at alternative power

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