"well, thats a pretty pathetic attempt, because thats the most obscure definition for perfect i have ever heard. I think its safe to assume that when all religious people use the adjective, perfect, to describe God they are not claiming that he is an exact value that when added onto would lose perfection. they are referencing his all powerful, all knowing, all good nature... "

What has always, and keeps amazing me with the religious is how their minds are able to tailor the very existence around them to suit their faith best. I mean seriously, they shut down basic logic on several areas, only to open massive pools of "Where the [moo] does this make sense?" in others. Their all good God started out with human sacrifice(according to the bible). Their all good god suggested you nail your servant by the tongue to the wall if he disobeys(according to the bible).

Their all powerful God watches all this suffering and does nothing, watches his followers die, be raped, experience the greatest of griefs, and does nothing. Their all-knowing God idly sits by and watches all this because: "The reward for your suffering is waiting in Heaven"?

What kind of leadership is that? Would you work for a boss that: 1. paid you nothing 2. watched idly as you got hurt or killed 3. was neither certified nor guaranteed 4. had no insurance 5. promised you something awesome when you died. ?

It's basic logic, we'd all tell them to [moo] off.

"God created humanity knowing everything humanity will do. im not God, i dont fully understand God, a human trying to fully understand God is probably comparable to a single celled organism trying to fully understand a human... how can you rationalize an all powerful, all knowing, all good being's thoughts to that of a human? you cant, the fact that humans cant isnt proof that God is imperfect..."

The difference between you and the single celled organism is that you (probably) have a brain. Not only do you have a brain, the human brain is capable of very advanced thinking, reasoning, abstract thinking and visualising. We can fathom a concept of something eternal, we can envision ourselves in deep space colonizing other worlds than our own. We can also look at the concept of God.

According to the bible God: Always has been, Always will be. Can't be destroyed, is everything and everything is God. Now collective minds through the centuries already answered this puzzle. Breaking it down in microscopes we've found the one thing that fits the description of: Always has been, always will be. Can't be destroyed, is everything and everything is = Energy.

"im not God, i dont fully understand God, a human trying to fully understand God is probably comparable to a single celled organism trying to fully understand a human..."

Bullshit, the cell doesn't have a brain, you do.

"i did not merge the two, i simply proved that they are human inventions; look at animals and you dont call them murderers or rapists even when they murder and rape their own kind..."

Because the animal brain isn't built capable of morale and empathy. The human brain is. This argument is still very weak from you.

"ok, assume God is all knowing. he is all powerful and he has the ability to change his mind. but unless he changes his mind he is still all knowing; so just assume he doesnt change his mind even though he has the power to, and he is both"

The whole argument of God is void avogadro. It simply makes no sense.

avogadro never argued that there is a god, are you guys on crack?

"Their all powerful God watches all this suffering and does nothing, watches his followers die, be raped, experience the greatest of griefs, and does nothing. Their all-knowing God idly sits by and watches all this because: "The reward for your suffering is waiting in Heaven"?

What kind of leadership is that? Would you work for a boss that: 1. paid you nothing 2. watched idly as you got hurt or killed 3. was neither certified nor guaranteed 4. had no insurance 5. promised you something awesome when you died. ?

It's basic logic, we'd all tell them to [moo] off."

Youre making an assumption. This is not logic, but a projection of your own values.

"The difference between you and the single celled organism is that you (probably) have a brain. Not only do you have a brain, the human brain is capable of very advanced thinking, reasoning, abstract thinking and visualising. We can fathom a concept of something eternal, we can envision ourselves in deep space colonizing other worlds than our own. We can also look at the concept of God."

"Because the animal brain isn't built capable of morale and empathy. The human brain is. This argument is still very weak from you."

You missed the point. avo said it was comparable, not that it was. You make yet another assumption in believing that the brains of animals are not capable of empathy. A cell responds to stimulus, just as a human brain does. By saying "the cell does not have a brain", you are saying that the cell's response to certain stimulus is limited. What avo was saying is that to understand "god", is comparable to a cell understanding a human. We only operate on the senses that we have. The point avo is making, is that atheists use the same process in disbelieving, as do the religious.

"you cant take everything out of the bible literally, infact most stuff you cant... "

So you mean, the book that is the ONLY account and reference for a belief structure is full of indiscrepancies and un-truths? INFACT.

Like..

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Rabbits do not chew their cud

LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
---Thats just wrong, Hares don't chew cud. They chew dung.

Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt

GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?

MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

Theres some wrongness I found... Is that similar to your meaning avo?

I'm basically bowing out of this topic.  I got what I came for. 

Thank you avogadro for putting forth the time and the effort to debate in a mature manner.   Unfortunatly we could not agree on many points, but I hope we've at least come to understand each other's position better.

Good luck with the rest of these folks.

Its funny we're the guys on crack, who argue against something unbelieveable, that evidently cant be seen,heard or touched.

Anyways, I am also bowing out of this discussion, if it is all going to end in "I cannot fully understand God" then there is no point to me being here...might aswell write "I cannot fully understand Unicorns/Dragons/Chupacabras"

There's a reason you dont understand any of these things, and there is no logics in your replies anymore...

"Its funny we're the guys on crack, who argue against something unbelieveable, that evidently cant be seen,heard or touched."

The next time I get caught with crack, I will argue against George Michael's penis, because it is something that can't be seen, heard or touched. "Unbelievable" as you put it. The police will logically conclude that Im not a crackhead.

avo wrote:
"cya, i hope someone makes a point i've never heard, but i guess on these forums, nowadays, thats asking for a lot... "

i thought i made a good point early in the thread:

#3 09-Dec-2009 08:08:53
Ehawk wrote:
"no, science tells us God is "improbable", our super-ego says its "impractical" and our personalities define the black & whites among the vast grey's of possabilities. 

some atheists also like to identify belief in God as a manafestation of human creativity. this means that some "negative" atheist's identify God as mans' "hero" to save man from the horror they bring upon themselves. Now, in modern day Earth, we call the MAN MADE deities of salvation... Superhero's!

is it too hard to see that the human imagination could have created God just like we did with all of our other work's of art? from Super-heroes to legends and bible's to internet....

Bravo! to the human animal!! the most creative species on Earth!!!"
______________

not only did i give answer to the thread on the third page, but i also complimented the human species as well. at least i think its a good point, and thats exactly "why" i dont believe in god.  its so obvious, the human imagination.  it is a great and valid reason why I dont believe in god.

avo, though you may not accept that as good a reason as any, you have to admit, it IS a very good angle on the whole thing...

if god exists, here are some questions:

does God were pants? or shorts? or does he let it all out for the angels?
if there is a god, does he have a family?
is there a bunch of universe's that are each owned by a different god? 
how would god handle an awkward moment? would he simply reverse time and correct it? 
if he's perfect, does that mean his mistakes were on purpose?
if he's incharge, was there ever a time when he wasn't?
how old is he? does he have anymore kids out of wedlock besides jesus?

if god doesn't exist, i have these questions:
what time is it?
you got a cigarette?
...caough...cough... ehh, uhm. [farts]..... scratching... [belch], haha...
what time is it?

"
a) is an empirical fact. Everyone can verify this by looking at the machine, and everyone should see the same number

b) is not empirical, not everyone can verify if God is the cause of his increased brain activity."

everyone in the world has to be able to verify it? so millions isnt enough. if everyone has to be able to, what about a blind person? he has to be able to verify everything too? your definition of empiracle is a failure... it has to be a repeatable experiment, it doesnt have to be observable by everyone...

and lol and genseis and sol completely missing the point of geese's post...

I found the final answers that any christian will make defending their faith when it comes to a personal conversation are along the lines of "It's all part of God's plan" and "God works in mysterious ways,""Who are we to know God's plan."
And there are many more questions than tangible answers.

Which may be fine with them, but for example: looking at how God saved Lot and his family from his bestowed wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and that kind of warning of action, does God still connect with people like that in a similar way? The world seems pretty similar to the Sodom described in the bible and has been for centuries, isn't the world over-due some wrath?

Also, The excessive use of metaphors, just causes confusion.

if god exists, here are some questions:

does God were pants? No. or shorts? No. or does he let it all out for the angels? Yes. Allthough very few actually see him.
if there is a god, does he have a family? Yes, Jesus.
is there a bunch of universe's that are each owned by a different god?  Yes, much like IC.
how would god handle an awkward moment? He'd blush awesomely. would he simply reverse time and correct it? No.
if he's perfect, does that mean his mistakes were on purpose? Yes, kinda like the wooops THAT WHAT I INTENDED !
if he's incharge, was there ever a time when he wasn't?  Nay
how old is he? Older than time. does he have anymore kids out of wedlock besides jesus? Well...there's Craig, but we dont talk about him much. Stephen Lynch got a song about him on youtube tho...

if god doesn't exist, i have these questions:
what time is it? 8:48am here, right now
you got a cigarette? Nay, I recently quit.
...caough...cough... ehh, uhm. [farts]..... scratching... [belch], haha...
what time is it? 8:49am here right now.

EDIT : NOTE, these are just my answers to Ehawk. Take no notice Avogadro its not about you...

a blind person was included in you variable, i did not change the variable, i plugged in a value that should of worked in the formula but doesnt. are blind people not people? did you not say everyone has to be able to observe it for it to be empirical? if those two statements are true, you can use logic to say that a blind person has to be able to observe it for it to be empirical.