Topic: Marijuana Legalization?

just seen it on msnbc.  i dont know what to think.

pro's
-can pay for universal healthcare
-can stop the gateway for kid to use cocaine
-relief on court systems and law enforcment

con's
-no way to proove a DUI
-operating machinery (businesses should still have the right to test and deny employment)
-effects on the brain may not be acceptable for our peoples' well-being

__________________
what do some of you guys think? there are good arguments on both sides, so we should argue.  AVO! get yo' ass in here!!! big_smile

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

the only people i know that have never smoked pot, are also the loopiest people i know

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Marijuana in my eyes is a lot safer than alcohol.  I know people who have made dumb decisions using one or the other, but I've never heard of someone dieing from too much pot.

Current Status: Done with Imperial Conflict

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

i know it is possable to overdose on pot, but i think in the case of legalization, the market would make it too expensive for most people to be able to afford enough weed to actually overdose. not to mention if it was leagal, casual use would rise, and i think that alot of the fun would be deminished.

i was debating with someone earlier, and he said that legalization would be bad because weed is a gateway drug.  he seems to thinks cocaine usage would increase as a result. 

i do not agree with that argument, right now pot smokers have access to cocaine because they are in the social envirionment which allows them to experiment.  by purchasing weed from a drug dealer, they begin to socially network their way toward more expicit drugs.  If it was possable for people to access marijuana from a pharmacy or a drug shoppe, this cuts out the origional social greeting that can lead to life of drugs.  Because a person can buy marijuana leagally, they do not have to commense risky behavior.

until i hear a solid argument against legalization, i think i'm leaning toward yes, legalize it.
------------------------
regulations!
-must be 21 and older
-must not be used during pregnancy
-cannot be used in front of children
-cannot be used in public envirionments
-tobacco companies are not aloud to oversee any agricultural production*note 1*
-business and employers reserve the right to test and deny employment, even termination.
-no television or builboard advertizments(adult magazines okay)
-should be sold in liquor store(this is the best way to keep it away from children)
-revenue should go to pay for health cost, funds should be done at state level.
-cannot purchase more than 1oz per week
-cannot leave continental US with more than 1oz *note 2*

note 1 - all we need is the tobacco tycoons to genetically mess up this beautiful plant, and ad nicotine to create addictions to their products... oh dont forget the tar!

note 2 - this would interfere with possable international trade agreements

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Alcohol is a gateway drug...

I am sKoE
Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in command.

6 (edited by Justinian I 30-Dec-2009 05:00:50)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

I fully support keeping it illegal. It's a perfect excuse to arrest poor people.

7 (edited by ~Pw 32~ Random Hero 30-Dec-2009 05:04:24)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

You can't overdose on weed ... you'd have to smoke an inconceivable amount, before which time you'd most likely either quit or pass out. And you clearly neglected to post the pro's of weed on healthcare as it has many benefits some being:

- Cancer patients: Weed enhances the urge to eat in cancer patients who have become anorexic due to their condition, thus improving their nutrition and promoting their health.

- Caner patients, Tumor patients and others: Weed blocks the amount of pain receptors in the brain, thus blocking the effects of pain. Again promoting health, could increase their will to eat, their will to bathe theirselves, ambulate etc.

- Glaucoma: Weed reduces the pressure in your eyes (which is what's the problem with glaucoma, an increase in ocular pressure) thus reducing the signs and symptoms, and promoting an healthier life.

- Hospice patients: Weed relaxes a person, promoting a more stable and peaceful environment for a dying person.

I could go on, furthermore the cause of weed being illegal started on basis of racism something along the lines of "Crazed Negros" and raping white women, they struck fear of the man of color to outlaw it ...

~ Cloud

"I Cannot Awake From This Nightmare As Long As You Exist..."

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

^

While it was motivated by racism, it was for Mexicans not blacks.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

i missed you cloud smile

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Don't get me started on the benefits legalization would have to global society either.. I've been a NORML member for ages and been contesting this for years smile

Although my thoughts on the definition behind "legalizing it" would mean you could grow your own. Do you agree Ehawk?
Even though, I'd put my hand up for growing it for the government, and putting some money into health-care.


I do think it should be 18+. And punishments for offending. Similar to alcohol.

I do not think use would substantially rise longterm. The initial 'honeymoon' period would be inevitable considering all the media attention such a hotly debated topic of law reform would receive. If you gonna do it you'll find a place to get it now anyway.

One of the key factors for the pro's of law reform (especially in the current situation) is definitely the economic side. How many millions of dollars would be saved emptying some overcrowded prisons of some minor drug offenders. (Cannabis related only naturally. Meth, Coke, H related charges should be upheld.) Now lets not get irrational about this, like I think some States are on their sentences for pot smokers, im not saying let everyone out, but Cannabis only related charges. Maybe even keep having a pipe in public a misdemeanor or whatever it is, but at home its ok. Smoking bars. Smoking bans, like they have liquor bans.



God, I got a bit started there.. lol

Its no fun until someone dies.
Cos I need to watch things die.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

The biggest pro is the drop in Marijuana related crime.

Je maintiendrai

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Well, another big issue would be what do you do with the people currently serving sentences for marijuana related crimes.  I know that most, if not all of their convictions would be upheld, but that would be an awful stress on the legal system, especially the appeals department, for the first few years.

Current Status: Done with Imperial Conflict

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

@extreme.  i think we have our rights to have our own gardens, but there would be a fine line between growing legal cannibis and defying agricultural law.  for example marijuana from the amizon jungle can pose an evironmental threat to the north american predominately desituous ecology. but growing a plant with north american genetic(maybe eupropean too) should be alright.

@levitas, i think minor possession charges, smoking charges should be dropped, drug dealers whom are serving huge sentences for trafficing should have theri sentences adjusted to serve punishments for tax evasion.  although anyone who had to pay fines for possesion(i have once too) during the "illeagal period" should not be re-embersed for their fines. also there will be no credit or compensation for charges that were dropped once legalization has taken place, there will only be amnisty.

@biefstukfriet, what marijuana related crime did you mean? simple possesion and/or smoking? i'm only wondering because marijuana isn't really a drug people use then commit crime like violence... maybe when a man has a hard day at work, instead of beating his wife, he can just smoke a fat blunt and chill out for a while... if you ask me, potsmokers are pretty passive.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

I'd say legalize it, but make it prescription only.

Been dreaming, I've been waiting, To fly with those brave ponies
The Wonderbolts, their daring tricks, Spinning 'round and having kicks
Perform for crowds of thousands, They'll shower us with diamonds
The Wonderbolts will see me right here at the Gala!

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

So its not legalizing it...

And thats the way it is already in 13 states..

Its no fun until someone dies.
Cos I need to watch things die.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Thats the way it is in pretty much all of the western world, i think...

I am sKoE
Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in command.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Ehawk:

"@levitas, i think minor possession charges, smoking charges should be dropped, drug dealers whom are serving huge sentences for trafficing should have theri sentences adjusted to serve punishments for tax evasion.  although anyone who had to pay fines for possesion(i have once too) during the "illeagal period" should not be re-embersed for their fines. also there will be no credit or compensation for charges that were dropped once legalization has taken place, there will only be amnisty."

I can understand that you want to debate the punishments for minor charges(like small possesions and smoking) from the users. What i don't understand is that you want to have the suppliers' sentences adjusted. That's totally different. They sold illegal products, that are/were considered harmful, for the sole purpose of profits. The idea that canabis might not be that harmfull is irrelevant to my previous sentence. They're breaking more and different laws then the users. (Negligence, Selling forbidden products, ...). I know little of the American legal system, but seeing as it is a western country, i think something like "You cannot gain riches if it is harmful to others/the society/..." is (implicitly) written in the constitution. (probably more detailed aswell ). Punishments vary from law to law, and if i'm not mistaken, going against basic rights that are in the constitution hold the heavier punishments...

Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

18 (edited by BiefstukFriet 31-Dec-2009 11:22:32)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

@biefstukfriet, what marijuana related crime did you mean? simple possesion and/or smoking? i'm only wondering because marijuana isn't really a drug people use then commit crime like violence... maybe when a man has a hard day at work, instead of beating his wife, he can just smoke a fat blunt and chill out for a while... if you ask me, potsmokers are pretty passive


As long as marijuana is illegal, production and sales will be in the hands of criminials, whom cause all kinds of civil disorder. The production of marijuana almost always goes hand in hand with illegal tapping of power and water sources. Criminial dealers of marijuana are more likely to be a gateway to heavier drug. Once the marijuana users get addicted to the heavier drugs, you'll have two criminals instead of just one (the dealer), now we also need to contend with the stealing and robbing junkie. It also works the other way around, the dealer that starts of with marijuana will almost always try to get more profits by selling heavier drugs.

Je maintiendrai

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

@SOL, i never thought of it that way...

@BiefstukFriet, that is one of the most strongest arguments to help make marijuana legalization! 

here is my scenerio(for those against legalization):
1. currently: if i want cocaine, i can just call my buddy that gets me my weed.  If he cant get it, then he knows someone who can.  this is called "social networking".  just like in the business world, it happens in the criminal world as well
2. legalized: if i want cocaine, i cannot ask my weed dealer because he would most likely be a hard working taxpayer that is not going to risk his/her business for my special interest(unless of coarse, the guy is criminal already).

note, most arguments against leagalization cannot hold water because people do whatever the hell they want anyways. i'm kind of surprised that the USA has not yet already capitalized on this cash crop already!

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

20 (edited by extreme 01-Jan-2010 10:34:30)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

"As long as marijuana is illegal, production and sales will be in the hands of criminials, whom cause all kinds of civil disorder. The production of marijuana almost always goes hand in hand with illegal tapping of power and water sources. Criminial dealers of marijuana are more likely to be a gateway to heavier drug. Once the marijuana users get addicted to the heavier drugs, you'll have two criminals instead of just one (the dealer), now we also need to contend with the stealing and robbing junkie. It also works the other way around, the dealer that starts of with marijuana will almost always try to get more profits by selling heavier drugs."


Is this from personal experience?
In my experience people who grow weed for cash do it on a smaller scale than you think. Im not talking business venture setup, although those types also do to, generally have less than many people think, especially nowadays. They are just good at what they do and and different crops in at different times. Which means they're getting a constant supply. It's pretty much a full time job just doing it right.
Doing it right pays off.
It's these people who will be growing it for the government medicinally once the law reform has taken place. They have the knowledge and utensils to provide a top quality product, which the government would want to justify its decision.

If it was legal it would be easier for those FEW people that have already considered this and have been set up successfully in operation for years. Successfully growing/selling weed, raising a family, working a part time job if not a full time job, and have done for years. Its just part if their lifestyle and only the right people need to know (the "criminal ring" as is most commonly known) which is generally just a bunch of mates who've just been kicking it together for years and share common interests. Through those contacts, work associates, family members  thats pretty much everyone covered a grower will to sell weed to. I don't know about in the States but in most places the weed circle doesn't extend very far. More people smoke it than you think, and more of it than you think. This does not mean that they are getting it off the street, or from criminal drug underlords. Most likely 80% will be gettin it off the grower by only 3 degrees seperation. Thats you asking you're workmate who ask's his brother who has a plant or 6 in a cupboard some getting a pound every 3-4months. Not the 'commercial' supplier everyone rants about that has minions selling dimebags on the street corner, bet they don't have weed EVERYDAY OF THE YEAR and can do that. Most of those guys probly buy an ounce or 2 a week off their cousin who grows a similar plant or 6 every 3-4 months. Thats hows the 'Tinny Houses' operate. Growers and suppliers can't risk their hard work getting screwed selling (hard (A class))drugs.
Let alone trying to sell it to people they don't know smoke.

F_cking wannabe hustlers who wouldn't know what a male plant looked like or knew what the plants specific needs are at different times of its both vegetative and flowering cycles would try to make the extra buck selling crack because they can't grow good weed, and can only buy dimebags off the guys on the corner mentioned earlier. So basically a bad business venture. Much like the used car seller who has to raise the price on his pre-loved totally-freaking-used-to-sh!t wrecks.
   

If Cannabis was legal 80% of people would have a huge weight off their shoulders making a few extra hundred bucks a month, off their friends and social circle, who in my experience if you know they do drugs its open to be discussed etc. but friends that are straight it's just not a topic of discussion simply out of respect and mainly to cover your ass just incase they really aren't your friends, so its not even the entire social circle really, maybe a handful of people who do it with another handful and that generally as far as it goes. No extreme amounts of cash are handed over.

Its hard work to be a media portrayed pot-dealer. Why do you think they always have new sh!t thats better than the last, then leave before you've had a look. Their supply isn't constant. And for one to be constant they cannot be far from the grower. Most media dealers are, so they have to keep trying to find new people to get it from themselves to sell, like I say, most probly buy off the street corner then add 5 bucks or take a bud or two, but neglect to factor in the $$ for the drive into town, the effort to get it, the effort to actually try and shift and large (larger than an ounce divided into varying small amounts, large amounts aren't profitable) and any other trouble anyone who just wants to relax and make a bit extra wants to avoid.  So experimenting in selling harder drugs would be appealing considering you are doing ALOT for F_CK ALL. But like I said.. this is only a minority. Those circles are all seperate from your weed smoker. I don't know if you've ever really known/lived with practicing heroin addicts, Pure Methamphetamine users, cocaine addicts. They know who they know and they sh!ts even more secretive than weed dealers (obviously!) and those people struggle to function in normal society, even once they are off the sh!t and they don't go out of their way to force that shit upon you unless they have some kind of trust with you. As those people struggle in social situation and pretty much just can't hang out and chill like a group of stoners will. This seperation keeps marijuana uses and hard drugs in minimal contact (except for the hustler).

The big gang jobbies etc. you probly see get busted on tv. Gangs involved in that level of drug trafficking are big and gangs like to party, in all honestly probly half wouldve made it into circulation. And half of that stuff would be sh!t quality from bad storage and being handled by 30 people before making it to the bag which you're paying for. Which is obviously bad, it IS a flower.
If you want to try weed for the first time at 14 then thats probly ok for you to be buying that  crap, and coughing your lungs out and getting an hour stone.
Anyone that actually enjoys the benefits of the effects of Cannabis (80%) wouldn't go anywhere near these places. So majority of cannabis transactions are safe, secure and kept off the streets, within a trusted group of associates.

And there's probly more people than you think with a plant or two of their own for personal use in their garden who might sell an ounce off it to someone they know if they get that much extra when they harvest for themselves. Another 2 happy customers.

Its no fun until someone dies.
Cos I need to watch things die.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

Someone confirm or deny this rumour please:

Marijuana grown years ago on open fields was alot safer for people then
crops grown in someones back room or basement (or whatever) -- due to
the extra chemicals added and the unnatural way its grown (i think thats how
it went).

Is this true? Or even some-what remotely true?

I am sKoE
Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in command.

22 (edited by BiefstukFriet 01-Jan-2010 18:58:42)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

"In my experience people who grow weed for cash do it on a smaller scale than you think. Im not talking business venture setup, although those types also do to, generally have less than many people think, especially nowadays. They are just good at what they do and and different crops in at different times. Which means they're getting a constant supply. It's pretty much a full time job just doing it right."


Truth be told, my comments are mostly based on the Dutch marijuana problems.

Here the sale of marijuana of max 5 grams p.p in coffeeshops is condoned(not legal), but growing marijuana is not. You can have up to 5 plants, not more).

We have eliminated the dealer related problems via the use of coffeeshops. But growing the stuff still causes problems, because the shops sell more weed than a legal homegrower with 5 plants can produce. So to meet demand production has to rise, resulting in illegal tapping of electricity and water. I really don't understand the reasoning behind this system, but that's the way things are. -_-

The pros outweigh the cons though, use of marijuana in the Netherlands is lower that in the USA and neighbouring nations. The less people use weed, the less people can get in contact with hard-drugs. It also lowers the amount of dealers on the street. You'd be stupid to buy your weed of the street here.

Je maintiendrai

23 (edited by extreme 01-Jan-2010 22:25:12)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

"We have eliminated the dealer related problems via the use of coffeeshops. But growing the stuff still causes problems, because the shops sell more weed than a legal homegrower with 5 plants can produce."

Thats true, and a smart way to control the dealer problems. I think it would be a good idea for the shops who were selling it to grow their own as much as possible, its pretty cheap to do and if you're allowed to grow 5 plants at home, if the law was altered and an establishment which sold it could get a licence to grow say... 10-15 plants on premises. Hydroponically that amount of a good strain grown by an experienced horticulturalist should yield 5 pounds or more which should be enough to keep one coffeeshop going for a few months right? until another harvest. People just need to be smart and practical about it.

As for the water/power thing, no-one I know's ever done that, everyone's to respecting to do a thing like that, and besides.. you _can_ just plant a seed in amongst you're tomatoes not needing power or extra water. If someone hydroponically growing it needs to steal that stuff they're messed up. Its very cost effective and its an enterprise. Let it pay for itself. All it takes is selling an ounce or two to cover you're power/water/chemical useage. If done right, an ounce or two will go un-noticed even just growing for personal use. You should still have more than enough to last till your next crop also..

It just takes work and most people that smoke it can't be bothered, or think that its easy. Yes you can plant a seed, wait longer and get the hazy pleasant stone off the outdoor stuff. Or spend 10 minutes each day watering some plants in a closest/tent and checking chemical levels/pH etc. and invest a small sum of money which should pay itself back with the first or second crop if done correctly and not squandered, and enjoy a 4 hour stone, really stoned lol.




@Morbo

Barely. The chemical's hydro uses use contain Nitorgen (N), Potassium (K), Phosphorus (P), Magnesium (Mg), Calcium (Ca), Sulfur (S). Which are Major nutrients important for _all_ plants and play essential roles in plant formation/growth and health. They also contain more minor elements (Boron, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Molybdenum) which also help in the transportation and growth structure of _all_ plants. The difference is the levels of these chemicals are refined for their intended uses. Much like Farmers fertilizers are refined for their use outdoors on their crops. The same chemicals just different amounts. All fertilizers contain these elements.

An enclosed environment simply is creating a contained ecosystem. You control the Earth, Fire, Water and Wind. All these essentials a plant needs to germinate through to dying at the end of its flowering cycle. Its not harsh, its creating a more ideal environment for the plant to grow in. Most plants flourish when conditions are optimum, 3 days of rain will slow down your outdoor plant growth. Unless you get a couple days of sun. Providing a faultless ecosystem with the perfect balance of essential nutrients cannot be more harmful than outdoors plants exposed to insects and animals and what the are carrying.

Its no fun until someone dies.
Cos I need to watch things die.

24 (edited by Jack Oniell 02-Jan-2010 07:28:52)

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

FYI


It is proven that people who smoke marijuana regularly may have many of the respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have. These problems include daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illnesses, a heightened risk of lung infections and a greater tendency toward obstructed airways. In fact, more cancer-causing agents have been found in Marijuana smoke than in tobacco smoke.





The most potent argument against the use of marijuana to treat medical disorders is that marijuana may cause the acceleration or aggravation of the very disorders it is being used to treat.

Smoking marijuana regularly (a joint a day) can damage the cells in the bronchial passages which protect the body against inhaled microorganisms and decrease the ability of the immune cells in the lungs to fight off fungi, bacteria, and tumor cells. For patients with already weakened immune systems, this means an increase in the possibility of dangerous pulmonary infections, including pneumonia, which often proves fatal in AIDS patients.

Studies further suggest that marijuana is a general "immunosuppressant" whose degenerative influence extends beyond the respiratory system. Regular smoking has been shown to materially affect the overall ability of the smoker�s body to defend itself against infection by weakening various natural immune mechanisms, including macrophages (a.k.a. "killer cells") and the all-important T-cells. Obviously, this suggests the conclusion, which is well-supported by scientific studies, that the use of marijuana as a medical therapy can and does have a very serious negative effect on patients with pre-existing immune deficits resulting from AIDS, organ transplantation, or cancer chemotherapy, the very conditions for which marijuana has most often been touted and suggested as a treatment. It has also been shown that marijuana use can accelerate the progression of HIV to full-blown AIDS and increase the occurrence of infections and Kaposi�s sarcoma. In addition, patients with weak immune systems will be even less able to defend themselves against the various respiratory cancers and conditions to which consistent marijuana use has been linked.

Clicked and pasted the above info from a couple of sites, don't remember where i found them;  google a few of these sentences and u might find the sites.


Personally i don't smoke weed or do any other drugs (besides the occasional heartburn medication and advil).  Don't see the point or the nessecity of taking drugs weakens the senses, destroys your body and allows people to decisions they wouldn't otherwise be making, beyond the stupid decisions that most people already make.  e.g. weed, alcohol, etc.   people just need to learn fix their problems instead of suppressing their problems and feelings by taking drugs. 

and so to answer the question, no i don't think marijuana should be legalized.

Re: Marijuana Legalization?

"In fact, more cancer-causing agents have been found in Marijuana smoke than in tobacco smoke."

There are none, so you must be smoking the wrong stuff ... and no it doesn't cause more URI's, COPD, or any other types of obstructions ... where do you come up with this stuff?

~ Cloud

"I Cannot Awake From This Nightmare As Long As You Exist..."