but anyways, that's what it's all about. Faith. Science is no more accurate than religion. While the idea to the masses of a God or a Jesus performing so many amazing acts can be fearful and absurd, the same can be said about science. The thing is, in most religions, there is a God or Gods and depending on how you worship them, then your fate in the afterlife can be either eternally good or eternally bad. You are forbidden from doing some things like sexual acts, murder, thievery, etc.

now this is something that many are afraid to accept or believe or just simply can't see how something so incredible is possible.

They then turn to scientific beliefs. One day there was a big bang that created everyone. Youtube, gas prices, frozen yogurt, diarrhea, oral sex.... all created from a big bang.....

When we die, then we die. There's no penalty for the way we live. The way we treat each other. The way we eat. Science is supposed to be able to prove anything and/or disprove anything. Yet science has many faults, this much we know for sure. For example, dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago and died out..... ok, how do we know there aren't dinosaurs roaming the earth now? Or even that they came from earth, who is to say they didn't come from another planet and just came here specifically to die?  Or that dinosaurs even existed period. We see bones in museums but who is to say that these aren't food remains of aliens. Anyhow, we can accept that Giant beasts ruled the earth but that an almighty God in the heavens is impossible.

kk lets go to something more practical.

You go deep sea diving and you see a fish. It's 100 feet long and it kills you. Scientists come investigate and "discover" a 100 foot fish. kk Who is to say that there isn't a manbearpig down there? Until that point, you didn't know a fish could get that big, so the possibility of a 1000 foot fish is real despite the fact that there isn't proof of it.

Ok lets try something else....

Stone henge...Scientists can't explain how it came about. There are theories of course but no real solid proof of what occurred. Ok what if I say a giant manbearpig constructed it as a form of entertainment. A scientist would laugh in my face. But then if he went digging around and found a primitive shovel and gloves, he'd probably say the ancient mayans built it over the course of a million years:p

Anyways, the point is. Until you're there to see what's going on yourself, you can't say that this is this and that is that. People claim to see aliens and ghosts all the time yet ppl say that they don't exist. people claim they hear voices in their head but we are quick to call them crazy. People also say they see things other people don't see and we get them "treated" because they are "sick". Believers in science are hardly any different from believers in christianity or any other religion. Nobody knows anything and perhaps through death we may still be ignorant. While there is supposedly no proof of jesus' miracle now, who is to say that 200 years from now there won't be? At some point, people thought the world was flat. it was later found years and years later that it was round. Though I've still not see the world for myself to confirm this, I'd like to believe it is round. But I could be wrong. The government could be lying to me.

Haha sorry guys, i've been busy of late. Decorating for a party is hard work, however i'm back

"Denying evolution is denying the existence of DNA  Of course it's hindering science.
But that's not the point at all. The point is that there's not a single shred of evidence that Jesus performed miracles.."

LOL, i think with this line, your sorta shooting yourself in the foot
Atheistic evolution, is so very improbable that numerous books have been written about it. Read Darwin's black box by Behe. He is a christian Scientist (with a PHD in Biochemistry,  so I think he knows something about the matter). The more we begin to look at how the universe and life began on Earth, the more compelling the evidence against atheistic evolution seems. ( I realize what Darwin's theory only focused on life on Earth, but I dont think you can have this talk without thinking of the bigger picture). I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution, then in a Creator lol...Evolution requires a very unlikely random set of events to happen, of which the time, matter and probablity of chance are all lacking for these things to come together. I think your response WFS seems quite adequate to describe it:
"Then we would still be living in a world of unicorns, chimearas, Atlantis, alchemists, elves, leprechauns, the big bad wolf and talking animals."

The fact you mentioned DNA, is one of the strongest arguments against evolution.  How did DNA get there? IF the world came from nothing, where did ths massive amount of information come from in each cell even? Some of the most prolific questions that Atheistic Evolutionists have to deal with today!

So I would say this:
"Saying that Evolution is true is denying DNA."

has joe4444 been stuck down by god yet ? or is he just picking his moments carefully ?

> Translucent Night wrote:

> Evolution requires a very unlikely random set of events to happen, of which the time, matter and probablity of chance are all lacking for these things to come together.

ding ding ding! we do have a winner. in that sentence he managed to pile together the whole reason why evolution, big bang theory and such are so hard for idi.. jesus fanboys to grasp. they still believe the universe is 6012 years old. and this is why they think that something very improbable could not have been the beginning of life nor universe. but in real world: universe is about 13 billion years old. in that timeframe, what are odds? even a scenario that would require thousands of things to be in perfect unision would probably happen. such as beginning of life.

as long as jesusters take bible as the truth, they will never understand.

as for the "survival of the fittest" aspect of evolution.. what the hell do you figure is the alternative to that? the weak survive and the strong die out? or what? nothing dies?

I agree with you Deci
the Universe is roughly 14 Billion years old and the Earth is roughly 4.5B ( i believer that's the age). With that in mind, the likelyhood of all the steps for evolution to take place are within that amount of time are astronomical (to a number that most mathematicians would say is impossible). Let me give you an example:
The odds of a single cell possessing non-harmful mutations of five specific (functionally related) genes is the product of their separate probabilities. (Morris, 63). In other words, the probability is 1 in 10^8 X 10^8 X 10^8 X 10^8 X 10^8, or 1 in 10^40. ~CARM.ORG

This is only one example why it's so difficult to accept Evolution. And when all the evidence against evolution was weighed
This Lead William Fix, who wrote the book "Bone Peddlers:Selling Evolution" to write:
Whether one looks to mutations or gene flow for the source of the variations needed to fuel evolution, there is an enormous probability problem at the core of Darwinist and neo-Darwinist theory, which has been cited by hundreds of scientists and professionals. Engineers, physicists, astronomers, and biologists who have looked without prejudice at the notion of such variations producing ever more complex organisms have come to the same conclusion: The evolutionists are assuming the impossible. Fix, 196.

Walter L Bradley who wrote numerous, well respected books on this topic says:
"And not only was the time to short,, but the mathematical odds of assembling a living organism are so astronomical that nobody still believes that random chance accounts for the origin of life. Even if you optimized the conditions, it wouldnt work. If you took all the carbon in the universe and put it on the face of the earth, allowed it to chemically react at the most rapid rate possible. and left it for a billion years, the odds of creating just one functional protein molecule would be on chance in 10 with 60 zeroes after it"

There are more quotes I can give you:
[Evolutionary Theory] is still, as it was in Darwin's time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support and very far from that self-evident axiom some of its more aggressive adovates would have us believe
~ Michael Denton, molecular biologist

Klaus Dose, a biochemist is considered one of the foremost expert in this area wrote:
" More than 30 years of experimentation of origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution have led to a better perception  of the immensety of the problem of the origin of life on Earth rather than to its solution. At present all disccussions on the principle theories and experiements in the filed either end in stalemate or in a confession of ignorance"

I have another long list if you want to see more quotes and more proof. So for me, this wasnt a matter of just taking it as it comes, but rather looking at the facts and seeing the truth. I think right now, Evolution is the fairy tale. So much so, that atheists are having a hard time defending their point, (look at any credible creationism vs Evolution debate and see for yourself..Even Dawkins refuses to debate a Christian Apologetic).  I highly suggest you check out Behe's book "Darwin's black box" or any debate with Ravi Zacharias. So therefore Deci, I hope before you try to pawn off one of your assumptions, you come with some solid proof for your claims (maybe you assume it will happen like evolution and your argument will form from nothing (haha forgive my barb)). Though i do claim to be a Jesus fan boy haha ^^ ...

Ooh, burn.

<sig>

"Either the Universe came from nothing..."

Were does this idiotic assumtion come from, apart from a lack of research combined with intentional stupidity?

"I suggest you go dig up some information and give me a proper response or don't argue say anything at all. All your doing is hearsay and a bunch of garble that has no backing, it's just white noise."

Funny how after that idiotic crap that makes up the first sentence of your post it all can be applied to you. Why dont YOU dig up some information and give a proper response or not say anything at all? All YOU are doing is hearsay and garble, supertitious ramblings that have no backing in anything other than prejudice, bigotry and paranoia. Because of your lack of research/intentional stupidity/willful propagation of a lie/whatever your post is nothing more than white noise.

he talks funneh

oh, i remember now, he kinda reminds me of ross tlaking (the nerdy dude from friends)

"~sigh~
ok Fokker, where do you presume the Universe came from then? Atheism believes that there is no greater power that can trancends time and space, so if we work in a cause and effect universe, what caused the Universe to come into being?"

That would be where research comes into play, especially if you are serious about understanding the true nature of the universe.

Homework: Strings, superstrings, membranes and bubbles.

"Now, I think everyone now agrees that the big bang theory is most likely the correct theory. Now please watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5eh-nsNtQU&feature=related"

If I had made such a speech, a speech so clearly lacking in backing research, I'd have made it my mission to annihlate all copies, especially if I liked being listened to.

[Edit]
Now if you want to battle with things that make no sense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&feature=related

I'm not going to do your reasearch for you, I've told you what you need to reasearch, now all you need to do is do it, just like I have done in the past.
Unless you have a reason to not do the research. Do you have a reason to not do the research? Do you fear being wrong, fear the possibility that you may be biased, prejudiced, perhaps even bigoted, more than you fear hell? Good.
Now there are three possible paths you can take:

1) You can do the research and then understand "the other side".

2) You can not do the research and simply refrain from using the "omg ur an atheist so u must believe that the universe came from nothing because i believe that the universe must have been created by a god and without a god there is nothing and those are the only 2 options omg wtf ur a noob" argument in any future discussion.

3) Or you can not do the research and continue to try and use that argument in the hope you'll eventually "win" because you've finally found someone who has done even less research than you have.

"well from what i understand of the string theory is:
1)it's still in development
2)It still doesnt disprove God
3)still leaves the question did something come from nothing"

So you have done *some* research, that is a start.
1) Keep looking.
2) The scientific quest to understand the universe is not a crusade against God, in fact by definition it has nothing to do with God.
3) Wrong. Do your homework.