Topic: War Economies

1914

World War 1 had just begun.  Germany was facing war against both Russia to the East and France and Britain to the West.  Any failure on either front meant Germany was doomed.  Knowing this, Germany had to change its economy into an entirely war-dedicated economy, calling on the people to give whatever resources they could to the war effort.  The other Allies, eventually finding that the Great War would last much longer than the few months they originally envisioned, began a series of social changes to mobilize the entire nation for war, transforming civilian factories into military factories and instituting the draft to fight the war effort.

In many nations, we can see that this war mobilization actually helped to boost morale initially.
Example: In Britain, certain people were banned from joining the military because they were seen as being a better aid to the war movement at home than abroad, such as people with specialized skills in factories.  These people were regularly attacked by the civilian population because, since there was initially no distinction, many were thought to be just sitting at home when their country needed them to fight a war, and were ostracized (this was later fixed with the issuing of special armbands that designated such workers).

Originally, the regions all saw a huge level of support in their respective countries.  Depending on the resources taken, however, the initial patriotism turned into a sour disapproval for the war, especially in Central Powers countries such as Austria where food was the rationed resource.  This demonstrates that nations in total wars tend to experience a shift in public support in which, given both a proper justification of the war and when playing a part in the war, the people will initially feel a sense of nationalism, fueling the war effort, but will eventually show that nationalism transform into disdain for the government when the people feel that too much is being put into a war and the possible benefits of victory and the moral imperative of fighting are outweighed by the possible benefits of settling peace with the enemy and getting back to a pre-war lifestyle.  We have sort of a bell curve of public support in this sense.

There are a few examples of the war economy's initial patriotism benefit, including US war mobilization during both World Wars.  Little things, such as recycling scrap metal and saving rubber tires, were highly necessary for the war movement.  But in addition, they also brought an otherwise foreign war closer to home by telling the civilian population that they were helping win the war through their help.

Without this initial war mobilization, wars are seen as distant and not having a potential existential threat to the individual.  Without some reason why you are individually a part of a war, your attachment and awareness of the war is faded, and the call for continued support on a policy level is met with deaf ears.


Now fast forward.  9/11/01.  The beginning of a new war.  The drafting of a new plan for war.

What did the United States need?  We didn't need massive manpower, as the massive tank vs. tank wars of WW2 wouldn't happen this time around.  We wouldn't need a massive amount of tanks or aircraft built, since the US already had what it needed.  Natural resources were mostly available.

So what did we need, then?  Two things:
1: A flourishing economy in order to pay for wars in Afghanistan and later Iraq.
2: Support, in the form of local counter-terrorism intelligence and patriotic support.

Following 9/11, Bush tried to make this argument, telling people that they needed to live out their everyday lives.  But the problem is that there is no revolution at that point.  When you are told to go buy lots of Christmas presents for your kids as a contribution to the war effort, there's no sacrifice, which prevents any patriotic mobilization.

Granted, there was a bell curve of patriotism in the War on Terror.  However, consider that the bell curve managed to come to a crash after only a couple years of the war, with absolutely no resources taken out of the economy.  In contrast, World War 2 saw a strong support for the war in the US for 4 years without a problem, despite huge amounts of failures in the war initially (Allies pushed back to Midway in the Pacific, Russia seems to be failing, and Britain's outlook seems bleak).


In contrast, I would argue that the post-9/11 response should have included some form of war economy incorporation of the war effort to the civilian population.  For example, a small tax increase could have been established, called a "Freedom Tax" or something of that sort.  Granted, it wouldn't be that much of a war economy interaction, since its severance from the status quo is small.  But it's something.


Alternatively, the US could have used energy conservation as a warfighting measure.  The claim has always been made that oil dependence makes the US dependent on unstable regimes like Venezuela and other oil nations (which is probably bullshit, considering the country we get the most oil from is Canada).  But the argument has at least some merit in terms of prices (a reduction in US use of oil would reduce the demand for oil, driving down the price).  Thus, as a war economy measure, the US could have called people to conserve energy at home.  That would have practical applications for the war effort, and might help out the economy at home through added energy efficiency.  And, by consequence, we have at least a possibility of accessing the war economy-level patriotism for the War on Terror that is critical to the success of wars in democracies.



Thoughts?

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Re: War Economies

great report.  i have a couple questions though...

1. Media.  what do you think was the medias role in the new war?

i only ask because i served in iraq from may 2003(first wave in) till dec 2003 and then i went to Afghanistan in july 04' then mid-deployment, i was sent back to Iraq.  EVERY time the media was around, people died, and we had to be on our "best" behavior causing our overall success rate to plummit.  I think the Media and thier sponsors should get the hell out of there!  i'm not saying our troops need to be as bad as the enemy, but without the media, we have more comfort room to survive.  I also think the american support for the war was diminished because the media was reporting the bad news all the time.

2. the war economy fo this day in age is what i call "Economic Draft".  Basically it works like this: the economy sucks and young men and women that are just about to graduate from school are scared of not finding work, then midway through there senior year, good old gunny seargent snags him/her out of the cafeteria and take them off school property for lunch. topic of conversation: Money and Benefits.  i did recruiting in Buffalo, NY for a couple months and they taught us the scare tactics to get new recruits.  also once you snag the kids to join, their parents will naturally support thier son/daughter if they join.

Would you consider that a reformed strategy for war economy?

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Re: War Economies

WW1 and WW2 != "War" on Terror

Now only are the wars on different scales the art of war has differed much as well. Please take that into account.

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Re: War Economies

true.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: War Economies

After typing a reply for an hour, a computer glitch messed up my reply.  I'm replying one at a time, starting with Lizon (only because I want a bigger reply to Ehawk).

@Lizon

The heck?  100% of my post assumes the fundamental difference between the wars.

Because World War 1 and 2 required massive amounts of economic resources, the total war mentality was triggered.  This sent a fundamental message to the American people: we are heading into a dark hour.  The entire nation would have to fundamentally change until the war ended.  Be prepared for what is to come.  The war was so big that it did come home to the people.  In short, the civilians became soldiers in a way.

Thus, when the people came into the war knowing that they were in for a long fight, they were more accepting of demands necessary for the war effort.  Rationing of food (within survivable limits), calls to recycle scrap metal and spare tires, and the lack of any civilian automobiles produced during the war were only a few of the many sacrifices which people simply accepted.


The War on Terror is different.  It doesn't require the massive mobilization, as most troops initially had sufficient supplies to fight a war (equipment deficiencies do exist later in the war, but many were due to political issues preventing supplies, which are addressed here).  Thus, no industrial mobilization was needed.  No rationing of resources.  No added taxes.  Civilian lifestyles were seen as "business as usual," since that is what was necessary for the war effort (keep the regular economy rolling and retain popular support for the war).


Thus, without a civilian mobilization, their mindsets didn't change to a wartime mindset.  The fundamentally different scale of the war prevented any need for a militarization of the civilian sector, which in effect prevented the civilian sector from accepting that we are in a wartime world.

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6 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 11-Nov-2009 20:58:45)

Re: War Economies

@Ehawk

First, thanks for your input.  It's always interesting to hear input on these issues from the perspective of soldiers who are more a part of these issues.

1: In World War 2, Roosevelt had huge command of the media, partly due to media controls and partly due to media support for the war.  As a result, most war news had either positive spin or was left unspoken.  So the issue about the media reporting the bad news is definitely with merit.

But remember also that there is a fundamental difference in what we define as "bad news."  Nations with wartime mobilized populations tend to be much more accepting of casualties, in that large campaigns risking a large amount of lives were acceptable in order to win the greater war and save countless more lives.

Now, it's fundamentally different.  One life lost is bad.  There is no look at the overarching goals of the campaign.  Thus, unless you capture Saddam or make some major news headline victory, a battle is either a non-event (if it's a relatively simple mission) or a loss (if an American or a civilian dies), regardless of the actual military effects of the campaign.


As for the issue of the media's effect on soldier efficiency, I never really thought of that... though part of the issue there is inherent media bias: if every news agency was completely in support of the war, a mission that turned out less than perfect would be spun as a win, so the military didn't need to worry about it.  But yeah, I'm going to agree that the media today isn't helping with the war for the most part.


One question on this, though: Was there ever any difference between your effectiveness based on the news agency following you?



2: Compare this to World War 2.  Granted, World War 2 had the draft which satisfied much of the need for troops.  But above that, the American culture encouraged people to enlist.  As is my example with Great Britain, people who didn't enlist were ostracized.

Now, you're trying to sell enlistment to people by not even focusing on the conflict.  Yes, it's an effective strategy.  However, it tells a greater message about public opinion...

Frankly, the new wartime system is a terrible way to mobilize the nation, because it relies on choice without a cultural shift.  The military is probably fighting an uphill battle in recruiting using economic incentives, although they have good incentives, because it is appealing at the individual level.  At that level, your own life is the #1 most important thing.  Those kind of soldiers are bad because they expect the military to be a way to achieve the goals of the individual, not the nation, which just isn't the military's job.

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Re: War Economies

I'm still trying to grasp what your objective here is. Are you trying to say that we need to institute some kind of wartime preparations for ppl to take the "war" on Terror more seriously?

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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8 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 12-Nov-2009 06:57:41)

Re: War Economies

The objective is a couple things:

No, I'm not saying we should institute any policy for the War on Terror.  Honestly, I think the ship has sailed: leadership calling for revolutionary changes in everyday lives can only happen shortly after the event that necessitates the change.  Otherwise, the threat that necessitates change isn't seen as close to home, causing the citizenship to disassociate from the original threat.  It would be kind of like if we didn't declare war on Japan until 1945, and justified it through the Pearl Harbor attack... doesn't make sense.

Rather, this is more of a case study.  It does two things:
1: Monday night quarterbacking on the War on Terror.  Essentially, looking back at 2001 and seeing what could have been done better.  The thesis here is that if the US made some explicit policy that took resources from individuals and put them into the war effort, the individuals would take the war more seriously, and would support the war.

Think 1984: The thesis behind the government was that if the nation was engaged in constant warfare, the government could justify taking every resource from the people, bringing them to the brink of starvation, and those people would only love the government more because they see their loss as a great sacrifice.  While I don't advocate the ends of the 1984 society or the drastic nature of their rationing, the political method doesn't necessarily lead to the end result, as can be seen by the WW1 and WW2 United States.  Thus, from a psychological perspective, we can learn a great deal from this.

2: Use the War on Terror as an empirical example of the results of different wartime economy models and their effects on the war.  Twenty years from now, people will look back on the War on Terror just as we look back on World War 2, Vietnam, and other wars to better learn if, when, and how wars should be fought.  I'm using the War on Terror to explain how the warfare in large part depends on the government's willingness to temporarily take steps to militarize the economy.

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Re: War Economies

i'm gonna reply bigger in the morning, i'm drunk. its veterans day and i got drunk at the park...

but one flaw the U.S. military has in strategy is that we get trained to destroy and move in, but not to maintain terretory.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: War Economies

"we get trained to destroy and move in"

I think we train locals for that.

Zarf, using your logic, can you draw any parallels with the 1st Gulf War?

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Re: War Economies

The problem with the Gulf War was that the conflict was so short that there was little time for people to begin losing support for the campaign.  So no, a parallel can't be drawn.

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Re: War Economies

america should switch to communism for the remainder of the fiscal year after labor day and use the extra cash to fund war and boost the economy, then, on feb 1st(the begining of the fiscal year) switch back to republic.  that way it doesn't matter what idiot in office screws things up, we'll all be rich...

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

Re: War Economies

"1: Monday night quarterbacking on the War on Terror.  Essentially, looking back at 2001 and seeing what could have been done better.  The thesis here is that if the US made some explicit policy that took resources from individuals and put them into the war effort, the individuals would take the war more seriously, and would support the war."

If  you want to go back not calling it the "War" on Terror would be good for starters. Islamic Extremism is an idea, you can't defeat ideas with guns, weapons, and bombs. The whole approach was a failure from day one.

They irony is that our efforts seems to be conflicted. Our domestic efforts reflect what they should be if our foreign policies were done the right way.  The problem is that our foreign policies have been flawed.

Perhaps I need to be more clear on this. If this "war" was handled properly then everything that happened domestically would have been justified. We shouldn't have to support a war cause they wouldn't be one. There would be no need to have public support for such effort.

Should we have gone into Afghanistan? Yes, the region needed to be stabilized.

Should we have had a plan form day one on rebuilding the country and provide it as an incubator of opportunity and growth in the region? Yes, but this wasn't done. There was no plan on how to stabilize a country that hasn't had stability over the past 30 or so years. This should have been taken into account.

How should we have combated terrorism world wide?

Simple, promote growth and stability in regions in which terrorism spawns. Promote education ventures that reflect the values of the people in the region. Respect the local customs and values and don't try to impose your values onto others. Freedoms will come over time as regions stabilize and grow. Rushing the process only causes strife and conflict as the ideas of the old conflict with the new. In all honesty we should have known better.

The best comparison to the war on terror that I can make domestically is that made in the US South and the suppression of African Americans. Segregation and the separation of the races was an idea, sure laws were made, enforcements was handed out. But conflict and violence continue to this day. But one lesson learned what that you can't right the idea of segregation with guns and bombs, only through education and understanding do these ideas eventually fade.

At least that's how I see it. ^.^

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: War Economies

There is no such ting as a properly run war. 

There is properly run governments, with properly run agenda's, with properly run objectives.

...wait....those don't really exist do they?

Promotion of stability and growth is usually funded by a government.  Whether that government is foreign or domestic doesn't really matter.  What matters is which government funds the most money to certain objectives in order to complete their agenda's.  Which is namely not promoting growth or stability.  They use those funds in order to promote their own ideology and beliefs.  Which in turn breaks down stability and growth.  Because more than one government is funneling money into the region in order to do two completey different things.

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