1 Topic by Noir (edited by Noir 26-Oct-2009 12:46:47)

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Topic: OPtimization of income

I just wanna get this area under debate, because i ahve had so many disappointing experiences this last round regarding this issue tongue.

What i am talking about, is when a player, be it banker or resource producer, are really putting his empire is a state of imbalance, where he is not optimizing his income satisfyingly.

One of the things i see people do is as follows:

Getting science before overbuild
Overbuilding to 500% before getting science
General failure to level the balance of science and overbuild in the empire
Refusing to use con science, because they believe income science or resoruce science is superior at all times
Refusing to use income or resource science because they believe con science is superior at all times.
Building some players in family/planets in empire to a much higher level of cost than others
Vastly overbuilding of defences in times on no apparent need
Vastly underbuilding of defences in times of actual need


When being a banker with respoinsibility of much of the fams economics, these are all mistakes that make me sigh when i discover them within my own family. And all of them will lead to a reduce income over time.

Apart from the last two about defences, it is really about allocating the best investment oportunities at all times, so that you do not invest in subpar investments. I see so many people not bothering to do even the slighest bit of calculation, but jsut keep on builing. There are huge gains to optimizing your empire.

The two last points i added, about defences is also something i see a lot. Its hard to always anticipate what might happen, and so defences of some sort is usually preferable, altho i have an objection here. Early round there is a lot of grabbing and raiding going on, and defences are most often a wise idea wink. However. In current Capri, most families have gotten a large nuumber of naps, and shares with hostile families are therefor severely reduced. Large raids or sudden ops (without former agression) is really very unlikely. The biggest threats aer really different possible nap cancellations etc. I almost never see bankers actually reducing their fleet, because they are now throu a period of hostility. This often results in a too high level of defences, compared to te level of threat. In the case of cancellations or hostilities you can always upgrade your fleet pretty quickly. Still i see bankers and resorucers (who are not attacking and ahrdly opping) vastly overprotected. Having 500k ground and 400k op defences. Especially for bankers this is really devestating for income, they severely reduce science, and ofcourse they demand upkeep.

I am as a pop banker in capri now making over 20 million net income, probably atleast 7 million more than the nearest banker. I do have the biggst population, but the superior income does really foremost come from a well balanced empire, where sciene is in the 65-70 revalon income bonus (compared to other Pax bankers) and a fitted level of defences. My family has had a quite peaceful round i will admit, but still i have lost less than 5 planets, and recieved only about 5 succsessful ops against me throu the round, yet my defences have been at a minimum thou most of the round (out of combat)

LORD HELP OREGON

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Re: OPtimization of income

funding as high as 65-70% for big revalons pop bankers in both eco and welfare is surely a waste? 55-60 is what i usually aim for on pop bankers (higher for cfers ofc).

and I have to agree about people not really maximising their potential growth. The thing that annoys me most, which is a product of many of the things you mentioned, but something you didn't directly address, is that funding too much science too early, and getting too many units when you don't need them, massively increases your nw before you're properly built up. 500k soldiers and 400k agents is 900k nw, that means you're almost doubling your building costs from empire large size costs (alot of people seem to ignore this for some reason, and just look at ob). no pop banker is gna get to 700% or probably even 500% if he starts giving himself a mil units early on, becos his nw is gna make it all far too expensive. Even a cf banker is gna have to wait alot longer to get to 700% if he's sitting on 3mil nw instead of 2.2mil or w/e.

I was using a metaphor that means God is watching us. You've heard this, there's a toilet on the roof.

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3 Reply by Noir (edited by Noir 26-Oct-2009 13:36:47)

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Re: OPtimization of income

Arch, i have funded that far based on calculation of payback time, you have to realize that i dont have other invesmentoptions that are better.

I am 600% OBed as a popper, our CF bankers are 1200% our resourcer was away, but is now back and is 900% (waiting for a jump to abive 1500% tongue) Im simply out of options, and then the tradeoff is really just save for EOR or fund science that high tongue

LORD HELP OREGON

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4 Reply by Elrohir (edited by Dracohir 26-Oct-2009 13:41:59)

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Re: OPtimization of income

Edit: I have nothing useful to say.

Elrohir
"Abstract art is the product of the untalented, sold by the unprincipled to the utterly bewildered.."

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Re: OPtimization of income

Obviously.

You havn't said anything new or anything.  These are all common sense and lead to better fam eco.

But yea, a good read for people trying to better their fam eco.  Maybe for their purpose - you can elaborate on each of the points, rather than just listing them.

eg:  "Getting science before overbuild".  It is pointless funding research at the early stages of your empire because the return of gc into research is far less than actually spending that gc building more cfs/tos.  People have different ideals and situations vary, but a CF/TO banker i'd NEVER get to research eco before they're at LEAST 100% OB (across almost 60+ planets - but like I said its situation dependent).  Also to note is that the higher your income is, the more benefit you are going to get from any percentage increase in science.  eg, 10% eco science on 100 income is only 10.  Where as if you're income is 100k, then you're making a cool 10k more with 10%.

etc etc.

The basic point is, is that it all adds up, and balancing your eco will lead to better efficiency and faster growth.  Really important these days (due to the game play these rounds) of maximising income and microing your fams' empires to bring out the best in what their role is.

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Re: OPtimization of income

i don't think noir's aim was to tell us about a fantastic new strategy, but simply to get people (not really you and me:P) thinking about how they could improve the way theyr building and growing in general.

I was using a metaphor that means God is watching us. You've heard this, there's a toilet on the roof.

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Re: OPtimization of income

Ya, in which case it's good - but then he needs to elaborate more to explain what he means exactly, to show people how to achieve or whats best to achieve (like in my example) tongue

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Re: OPtimization of income

You need to stay on top of things is most important. That is what worked for me last round and failed for me this round.

Elrohir
"Abstract art is the product of the untalented, sold by the unprincipled to the utterly bewildered.."

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Re: OPtimization of income

Building some players in family/planets in empire to a much higher level of cost than others, everything noir said makes sense to me, in fact ive been trying in an inactive fam to accomplish all of that. But the preceding statement makes no sense to me, because some players are just better at ic than others, also some are more active than others.

I would rather be honestly damned, than hypocritically demoralized.

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Re: OPtimization of income

Noir your income gap aint so big as you think it is tongue

True LEGEND

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  • Pyf
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Re: OPtimization of income

Noir, pop banker in your ally makes almost as much as you, maybe even more...  Also he actually has defences coz we've been fighting fams all round.

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12 Reply by annatar (edited by annatar 01-Nov-2009 03:05:56)

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Re: OPtimization of income

Noir has a good point on balancing defences, science, and overbuilding. These are issues I worry about when I am jumping. I try to figure out how many hydroponic farms the family can grow with me and then I guess what the best tax office/ living quarter balance should be. If no one is going to build hydroponic farms I usually build mostly tax offices. If there are a lot of hydroponic farms being built I build more living quarters. I have never considered reducing my fleet for the purpose of increasing my income though. After all networth affects research so much.

#3407

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Re: OPtimization of income

Fail

You should never pay attention to how many farms your fam has or can build. It makes absolutely no difference. All that matters for how weighted towards lqs you lq/to bonus should be is what the market price is. the higher the price, the more TOs you want. You have to realise that whatever food your fam is making from farms could in fact be sold on the market, and you should be treating it that way.

I was using a metaphor that means God is watching us. You've heard this, there's a toilet on the roof.

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  • Noir
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Re: OPtimization of income

Arch seems to be the only one besides noobmetztrex who understands this.

Mizzle and PYf, you guys are clueless pretty much..

this isnt about income on 1 empire, read my text, it clearly states the importance of balancing income between empires within the family.

Arch is correct about the farms being irrelevant for the popping decision, however, he should also be aware that any market use comes at a aprice, there is some inefficency involved most often.

For Pyf and Mizzle, i am happy that people seems desperate to outjump me, basicly i think its funny to see poeple jumping big poppers with 15 days left in the round. Let them! Ive had my income for a month or so, and everyone that disregards that knows nothing about economics.. As ive also stated, my family is majorly napped tongue and not doing much. We started saving on market days ago, and i have enough stuff now to go to 50 mill income easily. Pyf and MIzzle seems to think that would be an awesome achivement, but since its not like 11 days left, i wont do, why? cause im an economics man wink

LORD HELP OREGON

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15 Reply by Pyf (edited by Pyf 02-Nov-2009 18:39:25)

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Re: OPtimization of income

It wouldn't be as funny if you weren't our ally.  But we didn't jump a pop banker with 11 days left in the round.  He has been that size for a goodly while, will be 23 days at EOR.

And has been said before, any fam could have your fams income if they napped everyone and didn't have a single active attacker for most of the round.  torqez even opped your pop without jumping wizzies, and you're calling us clueless... lols

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  • Noir
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Re: OPtimization of income

Pyf i have been opped 3-5 pop ops this whole round  cant rly say i should have more defneces

LORD HELP OREGON

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Re: OPtimization of income

3-5 times too many X( noob.

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  • Pyf
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Re: OPtimization of income

I've got the perfect optimisation of income strategy.  NAP everyone and build no fleet

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Re: OPtimization of income

It works Pyf. It really does.

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  • Noir
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Re: OPtimization of income

Pyf still doesnt understand.

IF you are napped, then you resize your fleet accordingly

LORD HELP OREGON

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Re: OPtimization of income

Well you're obviously talking about different things so you can't really understand each other tongue

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  • Pyf
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Re: OPtimization of income

Im pretty sure I get that if you NAP every fam you dont need any fleet at all.

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Re: OPtimization of income

Battle of the vets imo.

/me grabs popcorn

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Re: OPtimization of income

Rofl, this is amusing. Noir is trying to sensibly explain to other players that the fleet you need varies depending on your situation, and pyf is just bashing noir and gen for napping lots of ppl tongue

I was using a metaphor that means God is watching us. You've heard this, there's a toilet on the roof.

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  • Noir
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Re: OPtimization of income

Arch, we cant really be bashed about it this round, because we are both freely admitting it tongue theres no shame in napping everyone when your only attacker is baratheon and gjiggy!!!

What i laugh about now is ppl first telling me off as a bragger when i made this thread, and then when they have jumped a banker to or pasts my level 2 weeks later in the round, they come back here and brag themselves, not even understanding the point of this whole thread wink.

LORD HELP OREGON

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