Really quick quote to give you guys an idea about this. Since this whole thing can summarily be defined as redistribution of wealth, whether you wish to admit or not, I find this quote appropriate.

" You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, wand when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what hey work for. That my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." - Dr, Rogers

don't most 20-somethings live with mom & dad or in council housing over there?

> ☭ Fokker wrote:

> What Dr Rogers seems to be speaking against isn't socialism, it's stupidity; Nowhere I know of has a system that works like that, or has ever had a system that works like that.
Take "Communist" Russia for example, what do you think would happen to people who refused to work?

Tracing quickly through the wonderful Communist Russia for a bit, we see that the empire fell, hard. The entire union fell in upon itself, and if you believe that we should model ourselves after communist russia then you missed something along the way. U missed that Stalin killed more people than Hitler did throughout WWII. Far more people starved in Russia then, than during the system they have now.

Their entire system proved harshly that socialized everything can not work. No matter how wonderful, how legitimate it seems on paper, it cannot be sustained. I personally would love to provide health care for every single American. I would love it if every single teenager could get completely free college tuition, thatd be wonderful. BUT, sadly, it cannot work in modern society and hampens others liberty in doing so. It takes from one, and gives to another. Imagine recieving a massive check in the mail every month from the government, wonderful eh? Perhaps for you, but that money came from people who worked their hard time to earn it.

Same with health care, it is a wonderful and sumaritan idea, but could never work realistically. The system would eventually implode upon itself due to mounting costs and corruption, and if you think that could never happen, then please stop and look at history.

has been working for over 50 years here too.. almost perfectlly.

K for starters, America (unlike European nations) is fighting a war in Afghanistan, has a huge military to provide upkeep for, and has troops stationed throughout the world. Second, somewhere in our minds tells us (cant imagine why...) that paying 50-60% of your income to taxes is wrong and encumbersome. As proven throughout soviet russia and china, this kills motivation and slows down the economy in the long run.

and yeah, following chris, the uk has universal health care and look how wonderful and "perfect" it is. Just to wait for a hip replacement takes upwards of 10 months. Imagine... having to wait that long, unable to provide for a family or yourself reasonably. In america, we've proven to provide the best quality health care, but the costs are driven out of control and we can fix that. There are a number of ways, but strangely, people refuse to look at them and believe that a socialism-lookalike transformation is necessary. Interesting how much things have changed....

plumber whose arm was left twisted grotesquely out of shape in an accident ten months ago has had an operation to correct it 'cancelled four times'.
Torron Eeles, 50, has been left unable to work since falling down the stairs and now fears he may lose his home after being denied incapacity benefit.
The father-of-three today hit out at the NHS for the 'unacceptable delays', but East and North Hertfordshire NHS Trust said Mr Eeles had his operation cancelled on 'only' two occasions on clinical safety grounds.

His left arm has hung limply by his side since he fractured the humerus bone in December 2008.

Mr Eeles, from Welham Green, Hertfordshire, applied for employment and support allowance but a doctor ruled he is ineligible for both because he can turn on a tap.
'Unacceptable': Torron Eeles has been left unable to work since falling down the stairs and now fears he may lose his home after being denied incapacity benefit
He said: 'This whole situation is absolutely disgusting. I have never heard of anyone else having a broken arm for ten months.
'It's been so long the bones have knitted back together. Sleeping is really uncomfortable because whenever I roll over my arm gets in the way.

'I'm a kitchen fitter and plumber by trade but I can't even slice a loaf of bread let alone work.

'This has been going on and on and it's a complete nightmare.'
Mr Eeles fractured his arm on December 3 and was rushed straight to casualty where doctors put his arm in plaster.
More...Rheumatoid arthritis drug which eases pain 'is too expensive for the NHS'

But within a few weeks a specialist said the bones were too far apart and that surgeons would have to insert a metal plate because there was too much movement in the arm.

Mr Eeles claims his first two operations at the Queen Elizabeth II hospital in Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, were cancelled due to a lack of beds and operating time respectively.

His third operation in February was postponed after he was found to have high blood pressure, while the fourth, scheduled for May, was abandoned because of concerns about his smoking.
The plaster was removed from Mr Eeles' arm after three months and he was given a wrist sling, which he branded 'totally useless'.

'Complete nightmare': Mr Eeles claims the NHS has cancelled an operation to correct his grotesquely broken arm 'four times'

He said: 'My arm just flops about but the sling wasn't doing anything. The plaster didn't make a blind bit of difference after a couple of weeks either.

'How the Jobcentre can say I'm fit I don't know. I was on incapacity benefit until a few weeks ago when I went to be assessed by a doctor in Luton.

'He said because I can turn on a tap and I can lift my arm I don't qualify for help.

'Now I'm worried about losing my house. I've got a mortgage on it and there are credit cards debts I'm struggling to pay because I can't work.'

Nick Carver, the chief executive of the East and North Hertfordshire NHS Trust, insisted computer records showed the trust had only cancelled two operations and that proceeding with the operations could have put Mr Eeles's life at risk.

Mr Carver said: 'Mr Eeles' operation was cancelled only twice - and then both on clinical safety grounds.

'The first time was back in February when his blood pressure was found to be high.

'As his surgery was not an emergency, our surgeons took the right action in referring Mr Eeles to his GP so his blood pressure could be brought under control.

'His second operation in May 2009 was also cancelled, this time because he had failed to act on our surgeon's advice that Mr Eeles that he should give up smoking.

'In cancelling Mr Eeles' two operation dates, our surgeons were acting on clinical grounds only.

'If they are guilty of anything, then it is of having the best clinical interests of their patients at heart.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218927/Plumber-shattered-arm-left-horrifically-bent-shape-operation-cancelled-times.html#ixzz0TUZOB5Sd

Cancelling an arm surgery because the guy SMOKES?????  WTF? That's asinine.  And I'm glad to say this could not happen in America, because he would sue the ass off the hospital, the surgeon and the referring physician.  And win.  It wouldn't even get to trial.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_x8AyH84RCd8/SabIosiXyMI/AAAAAAAAAIk/dUwlY9c7zkI/s320/wwii_medic.jpg

oh you silly doctor, patching up a guy as he smokes! O the clinical safety!  Roll him into a ditch, the toxic bastard, let him crawl out as physical therapy

Would a plumber in that financial situation have been able to even afford expensive surgery under the U.S system?

Hmm the article mentions that his blood pressure is too high and increases the risk of his surgery and apparently dropping the smoking habit would help reduce said pressure. Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Besides, if he has private health insurance he could probably try to find a private hospital willing to undertake an operation that would be risky under unnecessary circumstances entirely within his control.

Don't forget most UHC countries have private healthcare systems as well.

>K for starters, America (unlike European nations) is fighting a war in Afghanistan,<
So are we...

>has a huge military to provide upkeep for, and has troops stationed throughout the world.<
So do we. Percentage wise we are fairly similar.

>Second, somewhere in our minds tells us (cant imagine why...) that paying 50-60% of your income to taxes is wrong and encumbersome. As proven throughout soviet russia and china, this kills motivation and slows down the economy in the long run.<
Which has what to do with the price of bacon? The USSR, the PRoC, and others of their ilk have what to do with the UK and its NHS.

>and yeah, following chris, the uk has universal health care and look how wonderful and "perfect" it is. Just to wait for a hip replacement takes upwards of 10 months.<
And you think this is the norm because...? You think we'd accept that level of utter failure on a regular basis why?

>Imagine... having to wait that long, unable to provide for a family or yourself reasonably.<
I agree that would suck, in America. Not exactly got a social welfare system to shout about have you?

>In america, we've proven to provide the best quality health care, but the costs are driven out of control and we can fix that. There are a number of ways, but strangely, people refuse to look at them and believe that a socialism-lookalike transformation is necessary. Interesting how much things have changed....<
For America nothing has changed, you can trust an outsider to tell you that.

> Toothache911 wrote:

> K for starters, America (unlike European nations) is fighting a war in Afghanistan, has a huge military to provide upkeep for, and has troops stationed throughout the world. Second, somewhere in our minds tells us (cant imagine why...) that paying 50-60% of your income to taxes is wrong and encumbersome. As proven throughout soviet russia and china, this kills motivation and slows down the economy in the long run.

Well, isn't that just a major punch in the UK's face, which has been in Afghanistan and Iraq since it all started. I could also make a list of nations with a NHS that are heavily involved in Southern Afghanistan, too...

"has been working for over 50 years here too.. almost perfectlly.
define perfect"

first of all i said almost perfect. if u want u will allways find flaws and exeptions.
but generally you get treatment without long waiting times (for liver donations or such you sure need to wait till a liver is available for you. but in my opinion that is just normal since it depends on the number of donors and has nothing to do with the system itself). In one of the many other threads about this NHs topic i posted some comparission which said that waiting times in germany are even shorter then in the US. (But for sure this differs from region to region).
The quality of service also is good. Compareable to the US. And now please dont start with the ohh, chances to cure cancer are x% better in the US then in germany. you are right.. they are for some kinds of cancer, for others.. curing chance in germany is better. You get high end treatment here if you need it.
That is what i define to be an almost perfect health systems. good service without long waiting times, available to everyone, no matter what their income is.

The article Chris posted was about the UK, in the last examinations the UK ranked last in european healthcare comparissions.
If u argue against socialized healthcare you should not look at the worst country as comparisson. There are countries which just work way better then the UK.

After all, i see all you generalizing NHS as bad. It appears that u are SO indoctrinated by your free market theory that you are not willing or able to see that there are other options.
Germany is not bankrupt yet, our NHS did not made the healthcare system implode.
It is working fine for decades now.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/bb3Germany.php

If you really care, read this.