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Topic: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

Soldier Birds: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7350610.stm

"Like soldiers in combat zones, birds operate a sentry system to ensure their comrades are safe from attack.
By singing a "watchman's song", the pied babbler tells its group mates they are free to forage for food in Africa's Kalahari desert.
This is a rare example of truly altruistic bird behaviour, said Dr Andy Radford, of Bristol University, UK.
"The unselfish behaviour of the sentry is probably rewarded down the line. It's a win-win scenario," he said."


Altruism "in built": http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4766490.stm

"Infants as young as 18 months show altruistic behaviour, suggesting humans have a natural tendency to be helpful, German researchers have discovered.
In experiments reported in the journal Science, toddlers helped strangers complete tasks such as stacking books.
Young chimps did the same, providing the first direct evidence of altruism in non-human primates. "
________________________________


Is altruism, the act of acting selflessly, genetic, hard-coded into our DNA, an ecolutionary neccessity?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

.... maybe they were just bored X(

i believe the thing with altruism is over rated. why should it come as a big shock that animals group together, and those that developed systems of helping each other have a higher Darwinian fitness, and therefore produced more offspring to pass on their behaviors to. To me it just seems logical sad

The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

"produced more offspring to pass on their behaviors to."

blasphemy! god hates you for what you just said.

Confirmation is for sissies and altar boys.

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

I'd like to keep religion out of this if you please, Decimus.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

but god is everywhere sad even in your anus. or so the bible would have you believe.

Confirmation is for sissies and altar boys.

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

From the 2nd BBC article:

"Human society depends on people being able to collaborate with others - donating to charity, paying taxes and so on - and many scientists have argued that altruism is a uniquely human function, hard-wired into our brains."

Erm, people don't pay taxes out of the kindness of their hearts. I know paying tax is generally a 'good deed', as (in theory) it aids the less than fortunate et cetera, but being forced to do a good deed by law doesn't make you a good person.

[i]Tommy gun

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

I wouldn't say its altruism in the case of birds or other herbivorous animals, it's more a survival instinct.  The animals that keep watch for predators do so to benefit themselves as much as the herd/flock/group as a whole.  Only humans can commit truly altruistic acts, as they are consciously aware (perhaps not at the time) that such an act can be deemed as altruistic.

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

To perform an altruistic act, you must be aware of the consciousness of the beings you are acting in favour of, in order to act in the interests of their wellbeing.

Apart from a special few (dolphins and chimps?), all animals are only aware of their own consciousness at the very most. They do not recognise other sentient beings as having a consciousness, a future and sensations of feeling and pain like theirs, and therefore cannot act for the benefit of other these unless they see benefit for themselves or their family unit.

I therefore don't believe beings as unintelligent as birds can be altrustic.

[i]Tommy gun

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9 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 20-Apr-2008 17:36:11)

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

Altruism is a bad term. It suggests engaging in activity that is beneficial to someone else but costly to you. Sure humans do this, but very rarely, like when their children or family are at risk. But even then, people tend to high tail it like they did during the Black Death.

People desire to communicate and cooperate with others. But cooperation is critical when defining this human trait, because people tend to exit costly relationships. Relationships are established and continue almost exclusively if there is a mutual benefit. Just go to your friend and bitch about how your life sucks and be negative all the time, see what happens. Hell, take it further and go to your parents and make yourself a costly parasite. Make them work 14 hours to support you. See what happens!

My point is empirically reproducible. These wishful thinking scientists are wrong, a simple experiment like the one I gave will prove them wrong!

We are cooperative and social, but we are not altruistic.

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

"Sure humans do this, but very rarely, like when their children or family are at risk."

Animals do this too.

Not sure about the next part, if that can be applied... Research time!

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

"Hell, take it further and go to your parents and make yourself a costly parasite. Make them work 14 hours to support you. See what happens!"
bad example. Its only logical they support their own offspring. I think that part of darwin is accepted by most.

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

> ☭ Fokker wrote:

> "Sure humans do this, but very rarely, like when their children or family are at risk."

Animals do this too.

Not sure about the next part, if that can be applied... Research time!

And my prediction is that costly children will be abandoned. That is why we have adoptions and abortions!

LP,
No it's a good counter example, showing that an organism may forsake family and offspring when it is costly for it to take care of them.

Ever hear of desperate fathers in Asia who sell their children to slave labor and prostitution?

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

"Ever hear of desperate fathers in Asia who sell their children to slave labor and prostitution?"

They don't marry off/sell their daughters because that particular daughter is a liability or they dislike her. The family unit as a whole suffers because of poverty, and selling the daughter is the last resort. I doubt the majority of fathers are glad to see the backs of their daughters; it's probably a very desperate, difficult decision to make.

[i]Tommy gun

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Re: Soldier Birds and Helpful Chimps: Is Altruism Genetic?

And a very haunting decision too.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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