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Imperial Forum → Politics → russia - georgia
EU report about that issue finally seems to be done:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090930/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_georgia
Chris, i know u will still blame it all on evil russia.. but this EU report comes to the conclusion that the war was started by georgia.
I thought everyone knew it was started by Georgia. Georgia said themselves that they started it. -.-
hmm in regards to some article which i can only find on german... georgian "president" a few days ago said in some cnn interview things like "no one believes georgia started the war".
In answer to this report some georgian minister said "we still see russia as the aggressor"
in this forum i met some people who kept blaming russia for what happened.
For me it was clear georgia started... for many others it seems not.
russia taunted georgia, georgia overreacted, russia overreacted to georgia's overreaction. russia's overreaction was the war. who started the war? i dont see how you can blame georgia for russia overreacting without blaming russia for georgia overreacting.
FAIL
I note the passive voice regarding ethnic cleansing in Georgia. "Ethnic cleansing" seems to have occurred. By whom? It is not said. Perhaps it rains ethnic cleansing.
The report is just eyewash to give cover to whatever policy the EU wants to have. Georgia started a war with Russia by attacking within its own borders! I suppose Spain better watch its ass, it launches so many attacks of that sort. Then Russia "went too far" by attacking Georgia-- past tense, as if Russia did not still have troops beyond Ossetia NOW-- and giving "independence" to provinces--and Russian passports to their citizens, as their parliament petitions Moscow for formal absorption into Russia.
Remember that Russia did warn some time back that allowing Kosovar separatists to have their way would establish a new international precedent.
Now South Ossetians want separation from Georgia and the public perception is that because this time it doesn't happen to serve NATO's strategic interests, it somehow can't quite find the Western support for separation that Kosovo did.
I think the precedent of Russia sending troops over the border to grab territory is a little older than 1999.
It depends on the definition of "starting the war" but such a EU report isn't that trustworthy. At best it represents the honest subjective opinion of a few. But often those reports serve another cause.
If Russia did not start a war with georgia because georgia attacked its civilians, would any war with China after the chinese government attacks its civilians started by the Chinese government and not the outside power?
Where's the money in it for the EU?
Your all crazy, and this report just states the obvious.
Russia ftw.
Take care you don't start a war with indonesia in your own borders, they might go a bit extra and annex Queensland.
If Australia started bombing Queenslanders, i'd be the first to protest. In fact, i would
support an Indonesian invasion to remove such a pathetic and untrustworthy government.
My government isn't that stupid though, thankfully.
Conversely if Australian peace keepers in East Timor were being shelled by
Indonesia i would be all for an Australian-led invasion of Indonesia. Their
government should be wiped off the face of the earth.
I doubt they are so stupid as to take such direct action though.
nope. russia is wrong, and I hope we can start a war with them.
they shoved their "peacekeepers" in to protect rebels and promote secession.
Funny how that works out, Russia sends in "Peacekeepers" and then stokes up its ethnic nationals, carves up Georgia and "ethnic cleansing" happens while they occupy the place.
Who sold KORNETs to Saddam? Who is selling SAMs to Iran? Who wants to outfit Chavez with the whole catalog? Do you think I'm stupid? My govt is stupid.
> Who sold KORNETs to Saddam?
Everyone sold shit to Saddam. The U.S. practicaly armed and paid-for Saddams military to
fight Iran.
> Who is selling SAMs to Iran?
Who is selling weapons systems to Israel? And equipment to Saudi Arabia?
> Who wants to outfit Chavez with the whole catalog?
Russia, China, the U.S, pretty much anyone that wants to export arms. Unfortunetly for
the U.S. exportation of arms, the relations are currently sour. In a hundred years time,
or maybe even less, the situation could be opposite.
> Do you think I'm stupid?
Stupid no, naive yes.
> My govt is stupid.
Yeah.
> Funny how that works out, Russia sends in "Peacekeepers" and then stokes up
> its ethnic nationals, carves up Georgia and "ethnic cleansing" happens while they
> occupy the place.
Your timeline is both overly simplistic and wrong.
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-06-11/news/mn-2822_1_russian-peacekeepers
Regardless of Russia's intentions, Georgia shelled civilians and peace keepers. For that,
Russia should have removed the Georgian government.
> Who sold KORNETs to Saddam?
Everyone sold shit to Saddam. The U.S. practicaly armed and paid-for Saddams military to
fight Iran.<<
the KORNET was sold to him since the 1991 war.
> Who is selling SAMs to Iran?
Who is selling weapons systems to Israel? And equipment to Saudi Arabia?<<
Are those aimed at Russia? No
Are russian sales aimed at us? Yes
>> Who wants to outfit Chavez with the whole catalog?
Russia, China, the U.S, pretty much anyone that wants to export arms. Unfortunetly for
the U.S. exportation of arms, the relations are currently sour. In a hundred years time,
or maybe even less, the situation could be opposite.<<
They're not neutral in their sales, they are hostile.
I think the naivete is presuming Russia is our "strategic partner".
from that LA Times source
Grachev said 2,500 Russian troops already based in Georgia and Armenia will make up the first peacekeeping contingent and will take up positions as early as a week from now.
I think you need to have a closer look at that timeline.
"Regardless of Russia's intentions, Georgia shelled civilians and peace keepers. For that,
Russia should have removed the Georgian government.
Last edited by Morbo the Annihilator (Today 14:51:06)"
Putin has done that and will do it again.
> the KORNET was sold to him since the 1991 war.
And?
> Are those aimed at Russia? No
They are aimed at children.
> Are russian sales aimed at us? Yes
Do i care?
> They're not neutral in their sales, they are hostile.
And the U.S isn't? lol.
> I think you need to have a closer look at that timeline.
By RICHARD BOUDREAUX, TIMES STAFF WRITER|June 11, 1994
Dumbass.
>>> They're not neutral in their sales, they are hostile.
And the U.S isn't? lol.<<
i dunno under the current admin, but we used to be careful not to be antiamerican when we--oh wait, forgot clinton selling the moon to China
>> I think you need to have a closer look at that timeline.
By RICHARD BOUDREAUX, TIMES STAFF WRITER|June 11, 1994
Dumbass.<<
You suggest thats a Soviet garrison still in place? well that just shows how harmless it is!
that territory has been ruled by Moscow since...1944! well since...1925! er...1831! um...
> You suggest thats a Soviet garrison still in place? well that just shows how harmless it is!
I'm suggesting Russian peace keepers have been in that area since the collapse of the
Soviet Union. They, the people of that region, have always wanted to be independent of
Georgia -- and they HAVE been. For more then 15 years.
Georgia has then decided to bomb, shell and attack a region Russia had peace keepers in.
This was done during the Olympic games under the hopes that Russia wouldn't do anything.
Georgia was wrong. Bad Georgia got its arsed kicked by an outdated and under-trained force.
Put it this way: If the circumstances were different in Taiwan, and since the 40s the U.S. had peace keepers
there, and China decided to shell Taiwan, i'd 100% support the U.S.-led removal of the Chinese government.
>>I'm suggesting Russian peace keepers have been in that area since the collapse of the
Soviet Union. <<
They have not been keeping peace. They have supported, armed and trained ethnic Russian separatists.
>>They, the people of that region, have always wanted to be independent of
Georgia -- and they HAVE been. For more then 15 years.<<
No. They want to be part of Russia. They have Russian passports. Their parliament has asked Moscow to annex them.
"Eduard Kokoity, president of the breakaway republic of South Ossetia, says that he is
> They have not been keeping peace. They have supported, armed
> and trained ethnic Russian separatists.
Exaggeration and accusations without facts. You must be an American
conservative! 
.
> No. They want to be part of Russia. They have Russian passports.
> Their parliament has asked Moscow to annex them.
What i said, and what you are saying here, aren't at all mutually
exclusive. Please read before posting.
> It's Georgian territory, not Russian, and Russia was mobilized
> to attack from Day One.
Firstly Russia was caught off-guard and with its pants down. Secondly of
course they are ready to attack. Just as the U.S. is ready to attack Cuba.
Its called 'planning N shit'.
> This all adds up to a good scenario for the use of chemical warheads by
> Georgia against the 4 Russian divisions in the region.
Your absurd and narrow-minded point here must be a joke. And, by the
way, any government that uses chemical warheads should be wiped off of the
face of the Earth. No exceptions.
> Russian troops in Georgia since the '40s are not 'peacekeepers' and have
> never been anything but hostile to Tblisi.
Please pickup a history text-book. Preferably one that wasn't written by an American.
>>Re: russia - georgia> They have not been keeping peace. They have supported, armed
> and trained ethnic Russian separatists.
Exaggeration and accusations without facts. You must be an American
conservative! .
> No. They want to be part of Russia. They have Russian passports.
> Their parliament has asked Moscow to annex them.
What i said, and what you are saying here, aren't at all mutually
exclusive. Please read before posting.<<
Sure, they are joined by the Ruski plot to stimulate a revolt in Ossetia on behalf of Moscow.
>>
> It's Georgian territory, not Russian, and Russia was mobilized
> to attack from Day One.
Firstly Russia was caught off-guard and with its pants down. Secondly of
course they are ready to attack. Just as the U.S. is ready to attack Cuba.
Its called 'planning N shit'.<<
We do not have 2 armored division ready to roll into Cuba on 12 hours notice, as Russia did.
>>> This all adds up to a good scenario for the use of chemical warheads by
> Georgia against the 4 Russian divisions in the region.
Your absurd and narrow-minded point here must be a joke. And, by the
way, any government that uses chemical warheads should be wiped off of the
face of the Earth. No exceptions.<<
You will do nothing but talk.
>>> Russian troops in Georgia since the '40s are not 'peacekeepers' and have
> never been anything but hostile to Tblisi.
Please pickup a history text-book. Preferably one that wasn't written by an American.<<
Only a Stalinist text would ignore the fact that Georgia was not even the Tsar's until the 1830s, as any student of Pushkin knows. Also that in 1919 Lenin gave the Caucausus freedom from Moscow, but that Stalin in 1925 under pretext of Western aggression (sound familiar) conquered it. Also that in the 1940s he brutally oppressed it for supporting Hitler. Also that despite the rise of Georgians through the USSR it remained a grumbling slave into the 1990s.
>> What i said, and what you are saying here, aren't at all mutually exclusive
> Sure, they are joined by the Ruski plot to stimulate a revolt in Ossetia on behalf of Moscow.
Sheesh, i never said anything about wanting to, or not wanting to, be apart of Russia. They want
independence from the Georgian government. Different, but not mutually exclusive. Like i said.
> We do not have 2 armored division ready to roll into Cuba on 12 hours notice, as Russia did.
There would be contingency plans in place, and aircraft on stand-by at all times. Having a land-force
ready isn't as applicable, but you should at least see my point of 'being prepared'.
> You will do nothing but talk.
As opposed to you. Fighting the Russians...Wait, which war did you fight the Russians in again? Oh
thats right -- you are nothing but talk too. I have no intention of ever becoming a soldier. Probably
why i said 'should'. As in, its my ideals and beliefs.
> Only a Stalinist text...
> ...Also that despite the rise of Georgians through the USSR it remained a grumbling slave into the 1990s.
The USSR collapsed at the start of the 90s. One former republic was known as Georgia.
Within Georgia's borders were two small regions that NEVER wanted Georgian control. They were being
managed independently and wanted independence.
Georgia has tried to forcibly take these regions numerous times. And has failed each time.
The history of Georgia itself is irrelevant.
Not sure how else i can explain this.
Wanting independence, and wanting to be Putin's pet rabbit, are mutually exclusive.
Yes our current government has decided to martyr our interests like Obi-Wan Kenobi.
If you're going to argue the half-facts that are REALLY important then all we can do is continue shouting over each other's shoulders.
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