Topic: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

I want to start off by telling you a story of my life...


I have been fairly active in the local high school and college debate communities for a few years.  Now, within these communities, we have fairly definitively found a principle to be true.  Let me give you a hypothetical scenario:


One person is advocating Social Security reform.  They highlight 4 different problems in the world their proposal would fix.

Now, assume that I am arguing against this person.  Now, if the other guy wins that he fixes even one of those 4 problems he claims he can fix, he could spend the rest of the debate saying how that one issue is the most important thing to fix in the world, and I'll probably never win.  Thus, I have to take down all 4 of his advantages, either by saying that they aren't as big a deal as he's claiming, or by saying he doesn't actually fix the issues.

But if I stop there, there wouldn't really be a reason to vote for me, would there?  He may not solve any of the 4 things he wanted to fix... but if I don't present a reason why his proposal is BAD, what's the harm in trying the system out and seeing if it would work?

That means, essentially, I have to win 5 different  arguments to win this debate: One argument that takes down each advantage, plus some reason why the proposal is a bad idea.  If the opponent wins even one of these arguments, I lose the debate.  In some debates, the amount of arguments the opposition is forced to win in this case can be much higher.



But we debaters have been using another technique to take down proposals: presenting counteradvocacies.

Let's take social security reform.  Assume that its advocate is proposing exactly what Bush  Jr. proposed.  Assume still, in this case, that they're claiming 4 independent reasons why you should support their proposal.

What if I came up with another way to fix social security?  Perhaps I can argue that the current system is bad, but the opponent's PARTICULAR proposal isn't the BEST way to fix the system.

Let's go back to our theoretical debate.  Assume for the moment that I have a counteradvocacy that fixed 3 out of the 4 different problems the opponent is claiming the Bush proposal would fix.  Now what arguments do I have to win?

1: That my counter-proposal fixes those 3 problems.
2: Some reason why the 4th issue isn't as important as the opponent makes it out to be, or a reason why the opponent doesn't actually fix their problem.
3: Some other problem that would be caused by the opponent's proposal, yet wouldn't be caused by our own proposal.  (If you simply present a counter-proposal without any reason why the opponent's proposal is worse, then there's no reason to prefer your system over their system.


That description assumed that there was one advantage that the counterproposal couldn't fix.  However, there are many cases in which the counter-proposal will fix everything.  In that case, you only need to win two arguments in the entire debate.




Now you tell me: Which is easier?



******************************************************************************************************************

Okay, so telling stories about high school kids yelling at each other is one thing, but what does this mean in terms of real world shit?  For that, let's turn to the Health Care debate in the US.


Obama comes on stage and announces his proposal for health care.  The GOP hates the idea.  What do they do?

They could openly oppose the idea 100%, and advocate the current system.  However, that won't work.  The House has a GOP minority, and the Senate is filibuster-proof.  If the framing of the debate is "either universal health care or nothing," the Senate will most definitely opt for universal health care.  The Democrats would pass their bill, and the Republicans would be written off as losers in the debate.

However, the GOP didn't do that.  Instead, Republicans are presenting their own health care proposal.  They're cutting down a few programs, changing a few things... the works.  By presenting a more moderated policy, the Republicans have managed to break the Democrat lines: some conservative Democrats are questioning whether Obama's proposal is worth the debate or even whether it's a good idea.

Remember the context of these happenings: The GOP is only 40 people that can't successfully filibuster anything as long as the Democrats are a unified front.  Their only way of getting their voice heard is to break the Democrat lines.  The health care debate allowed the GOP to do exactly that, and now their minority position has gotten more political sway than it statistically should get.




As a person who is relatively on the conservative wing, I often find myself on the defensive on issues like this.

Universal health care: Democrats have a proposal, GOP is framed as wanting more of the same.
Gay marriage: Democrats have a proposal, GOP is framed as wanting more of the same.

However, the issue of being on the defensive isn't exclusive to Republicans: Democrats had to play defense on the Social Security Reform debate last year, and had to do similar with the domestic reforms in '01, such as No Child Left Behind.  So this isn't advice to one party or another.  It's advice to all people who are forced in the defensive on political discussions.



We can do one of two things while opposing a proposal.  First, there's the route of advocating the current system.  This is the way most people have taken the debate.

This is an uphill battle.  You may be 100% right on the issue.   But the population at large is much less willing to accept you than they will accept a proposal.  Here's why:
A: Testability: Many people in the US can point to relatives who they believe received improper treatment at a hospital under the current system.  If they can, it shows an empirical example of why there is something wrong with the current system.  However, you, as an opponent of that person's plan, can never point out people who have been given improper health care as a result of their exact scenario, as their system has not been tested.  You are trying to extrapolate real world deaths from hypothetical scenarios.  In short, they can PROVE your system has problems, but you can't PROVE their system has problems, simply because their system doesn't exist.

B: Most people who support health care reform can cite some person they know who was hurt under the current system.  To them, universal health care isn't an issue of comparative hypothetical models.  To them, it's about a mother, brother, child, spouse, friend, or other relative who actually was hurt.  To them, the issue is an emotional issue.  They want SOME change.  These people can't be won over without proposing a change in policy.







I'm not saying that we need to compromise on issues.  Republicans don't always need to present proposals that concede certain things to the Democrats.  Reforms can exist without the need for concessions.  Some examples:

Sean Hannity has proposed a health care system where people would be given a credit of a certain amount of money every year which they could use toward health care.  It would still operate within a free market health care system, and only makes extremely modest concessions.


In closing, I want to tell you roughly about a commercial I used to see a couple years ago.  It demonstrates exactly what I am talking about, and thus is one of my favorite political ads ever (which is ironic considering that I'm pretty much against their position).


The AARP ran an ad against Bush's proposed social security reform plan.  It opens with a plumber removing his head from under a sink, and a woman standing over by him.  The plumber says, "No doubt about it.  There's a leak... we'll have to rebuild the house."
As the homeowner stares at him, confused, an iron ball is suddenly thrown into the house, taking down a wall.

A backvoice then begins: "Social security is the same way.  Should we respond to some minor problems with Social Security by... taking down the house?"




An effective message: Large problems don't necessarily need large solutions.  While a small message, the AARP managed to send the exact message I'm talking about: some change may be needed, but the change the opponent (Bush) is advocating isn't the RIGHT change.

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Except the social security house IS going to fall down.

I knew a faculty advisor who always got the $$$ for his office.  He always asked for more than what he needed.  So when he went in to argue budgets, he always had to admit he was guesstimating costs, but certainly he was within the realm of possibility and not beyond reality...for instance, he wanted 100 new chairs for guest lectures.  Do you have more than 100 people show up, he was asked. He said he was hopeful.  The budget chief rebuked him for being greedy and ignoring realities and told him he would get 20 new chairs and if more people came, he could always borrow from other offices.  And then the budget guy felt very good about cutting so much waste out of the new budget.

But our guy got the 20 chairs he needed.

And every few years he would get mad with the budget head and say "I told you I needed 100 chairs, I got 20.  I told you we needed 3 assistants, we got 1.  I told you we needed six visiting lecturers, we got three.  When will we get full funding? it's a disgrace!" and the budget chief told him nobody got everything but he had been patient and he'd see what could be done to help them out this coming year...

All the Dems need to do to game Republicans looking to play it smart, is jump waaaay left, adn the Republicans would be the champions of "the middle" and meet them halfway... and make it clear that EVERYBODY wants to go left, just a question of how far...when we don't want it or need it.

Look at how amnesty is playing out.  Obama oughta be a dead duck for promising amnesty...but too many Republicans are on record as open to a deal, so they can't attack him for what they cheered Bush for doing...

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Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

> Chris_Balsz wrote:

> Except the social security house IS going to fall down.

I knew a faculty advisor who always got the $$$ for his office.  He always asked for more than what he needed.  So when he went in to argue budgets, he always had to admit he was guesstimating costs, but certainly he was within the realm of possibility and not beyond reality...for instance, he wanted 100 new chairs for guest lectures.  Do you have more than 100 people show up, he was asked. He said he was hopeful.  The budget chief rebuked him for being greedy and ignoring realities and told him he would get 20 new chairs and if more people came, he could always borrow from other offices.  And then the budget guy felt very good about cutting so much waste out of the new budget.

But our guy got the 20 chairs he needed.

And every few years he would get mad with the budget head and say "I told you I needed 100 chairs, I got 20.  I told you we needed 3 assistants, we got 1.  I told you we needed six visiting lecturers, we got three.  When will we get full funding? it's a disgrace!" and the budget chief told him nobody got everything but he had been patient and he'd see what could be done to help them out this coming year...

All the Dems need to do to game Republicans looking to play it smart, is jump waaaay left, adn the Republicans would be the champions of "the middle" and meet them halfway... and make it clear that EVERYBODY wants to go left, just a question of how far...when we don't want it or need it.

Look at how amnesty is playing out.  Obama oughta be a dead duck for promising amnesty...but too many Republicans are on record as open to a deal, so they can't attack him for what they cheered Bush for doing...






1: I'm not saying that either side NEEDS to capitulate to the other.  Presenting a counter-proposal doesn't mean conceding to the other side.  I presented you a perfectly good example here: Hannity on health care, presenting a right-wing proposal to solve the issues the left wanted to fix.  If a real problem in society exists and your political philosophy doesn't offer any option to repair the issue... then that's probably a reason why your philosophy is flawed.

The amnesty debate, actually, is a really good example of what type of debate I'm talking about.  Neither side in the debate said that the status quo was a good system.  The Democrats wanted an amnesty system established, while the Republicans wanted a more strict enforcement system.

2: I'm only asking for people to make tactical assessments of their arguments.  Let's take your example of amnesty.  Bush proposed an amnesty system, putting conservative Republicans on the defensive.  Republicans are given three options:
A: Present a conservative counter-proposal.
B: Advocate the current system.
C: Look for a moderate change.

Many conservatives opted for choice B.  From a purely rhetorical point of view, this is probably the best choice.  Republicans were able to create the same leverage in terms of argumentation that the Democrats were able to do. 

Tighter border controls is very much in line with the conservative agenda.  There's no philosophical paradox there.  However, rhetorically, Republicans get to claim, just like Democrats, that the status quo is a bad system, and we need to use a hypothetical policy option to fix it.

Yes, many Republicans did end up capitulating and negotiating with the Democrats.  However, we're not talking about them.  They've either already conceded the debate, or their political beliefs are different than what you are assuming they actually were, at which point they actually won the debate (RINO).

3: You're not actually responding to the substance of my argument anyway... please try not to derail the subject.  We're not talking about these issues from a substantive point of view.  This is a rhetorical analysis of HOW we argue about things, not about the issues themselves.

4: Are you telling me that Republicans would be better off saying that no immigration problem existed than to demand tighter border controls?  I am ONLY making the comparison between these two issues: Presenting a counter-advocacy (ideally one in line with your own political beliefs), versus advocating the current system.

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4 (edited by Lizon 25-Aug-2009 22:16:39)

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

"All the Dems need to do to game Republicans looking to play it smart, is jump waaaay left, adn the Republicans would be the champions of "the middle" and meet them halfway... and make it clear that EVERYBODY wants to go left, just a question of how far...when we don't want it or need it."

Only problem is that many raidical republicans are instead trying to go farther right. A few have toned down their rethoric but not enough IMO to make much of a difference. Depends on if the Dems can get some kind of reform through. I like the idea of co-ops myself. There should be limits on malpractice suites and damage claims against drug companies as well. One would think that having your product that you spent hundreds of millions of dollers developing pulled off the market because it had unintended side effects would be "damaging" enough. No need to tack on a few hundred million more "damages" on top of that to a bunch of greedy malpractice lawers.

"Look at how amnesty is playing out.  Obama oughta be a dead duck for promising amnesty...but too many Republicans are on record as open to a deal, so they can't attack him for what they cheered Bush for doing..."

Amnesty wouldn't be bad if they addressed the issues with immigration at the same time. The hardliners who don't want some kind of amnesty for the 20-40m undocumented workers in this country are out of touch with reality. I say yes to the amnesty, reform the immigration system to make it easier and more steamlined at the same time. Make the system the preferred system. People need to be made aware that they don't need to run through the Arizona desert to get into this country. There should be a simpler and safer way.

And ax the stupid "wall" proposal. That's just plain silly. We live in America, land of the free and home of the brave, not Fortress America that greets you with machine guns, walls with barbed wire, search towers, and guard dogs. -.-;

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

For some reason, I feel like the subject of this thread has suddenly been ignored...

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Anything?  Anyone?

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7 (edited by East 28-Aug-2009 08:04:39)

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

it's kind of a limited audience topic since most americans don't know anything about US social security and don't really care about it much either

if your opponent is right with his overall goal it's easier to steal his idea and make it your own with an adapted solution that may or may not be better... if youcan't take them on as a whole you try to defeat them in detail, that is probably from Sun Tzu I dunno smile

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Well, in this case, social security really only operates as an example for a concept, so it's really not necessary to understand the issue.

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9 (edited by East 28-Aug-2009 11:19:33)

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

I was just trying to be polite, the truth is nobody likes you.

wink

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

again zarf and lizon, you start off by saying "you right wingers are losers" which may be but we'd only accept it as the end result of all out war, and not something we're gonna accept from a meeting in the corridor before we sit at the table

and  the first stage of revolution is disruption.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

> Chris_Balsz wrote:

> again zarf and lizon, you start off by saying "you right wingers are losers" which may be but we'd only accept it as the end result of all out war, and not something we're gonna accept from a meeting in the corridor before we sit at the table

and  the first stage of revolution is disruption.



W...

T...

F...


Where do I come out and say "you right wingers are losers" in a way that does not also criticize liberal candidates?

In fact, at the point where I agree that the conservative rhetorical strategy during the immigration campaign was exactly what I was talking about... doesn't that completely pull the rug out from under your argument?

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

you might "also" criticize the left but I'm saying we're not going to yield on anything, win or lose.
WTF FTW!

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Did you even read my second post?

I'm not advocating "yielding."  In fact, I claim that the right, along with the left, are both rhetorically benefited by going on the offensive by offering solutions to issues, rather than playing defense and simply addressing "why the opponent's idea won't work."

I even point out that the right's effort on immigration was a good example of what I'm talking about: they presented a proposal (secure the border, strengthen domestic enforcement against illegal immigrants) that fit exactly in line with what I said above.

I am only criticizing a party when they attack an opponent's plan without presenting their own proposal to alleviate the worries.

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

So

Liberals say there's a problem, and then want a government program to solve it.

You want the Right to come up with its own government program?  That's a liberal approach.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

> Chris_Balsz wrote:

> So

Liberals say there's a problem, and then want a government program to solve it.

You want the Right to come up with its own government program?  That's a liberal approach.




1: Then you had better explain that to every conservative that has ever proposed... anything.

Social Security Reform
Border control
School choice programs
Health care vouchers


All... government... programs!
All... conservative... programs!


Unless you, Chris, are willing to say that conservatives don't believe in any of the above programs, which are all examples of EXACTLY what I said... your argument doesn't apply.

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

those are pretty much "compassionate conservative" stuff

border patrol...urban raids are definitely govt programs, but "reform" avoids that because it works too well

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Okay, then.

What is the conservative position on education?

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

What is the conservative position on education?

That it is good.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

If that's the extent of the political platform, I'm switching parties...

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

The Republican Party is not a conservative operation anymore.

The Republican Party might win some votes compromising with liberals, but what's teh point?

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Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Just answer the question.  What is the conservative view of education policy?

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

Note: I only mentioned radical republicans who think that their beliefs are what the majority of Americans  believe. Who honestly think that the further right they go the more popular they will become. It's an illogical assumption and shows just how detached from reality they really are.

And I'm a moderate myself, I voted for many republicans in the past and will continue to do so in the future if the candidate is the type of person I would want in that office. The minute they start spewing off idiotic rhetoric about border walls, trying to outlaw roe vs wade and stuff like that they no longer get my vote. The minute you put your party platform above serving your constituents you no longer deserve to be in office.

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

> Zarf BeebleBrix wrote:

> Just answer the question.  What is the conservative view of education policy?


the parties in the US are very broad to accommodate lots of people to prevent parties from splitting which would cause votes to be split and their opponents to win elections. because of this, there isnt a single view for education as either a conservative or a liberal.

Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

> avogadro wrote:

> > Zarf BeebleBrix wrote:

> Just answer the question.  What is the conservative view of education policy?


the parties in the US are very broad to accommodate lots of people to prevent parties from splitting which would cause votes to be split and their opponents to win elections. because of this, there isnt a single view for education as either a conservative or a liberal.



Take that up with Chris, not me.  He's the one claiming that there is some overarching "conservative" view on all these issues that makes policy propositions impossible.

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Re: Debate 101: "All or Nothing" politics

No, the needs of the party are separate of a particular viewpoint...while the Republican Party was once THE VOICE of conservatism in the United States it is no longer assuredly the vehicle of the movement.

What might aid the Republican Party in winning elections may compromise the ideological agenda of policy and therefore be undesirable for conservatives.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.