Topic: US shouldn't diss the NHS

[The following rant was inspired by, and partly based on, an article written by Janice Turner in The Times one recent Saturday.]


  47 million American citizens live in fear of getting ill due to a lack of universal health care. That is roughly half the population of my country.
I find it appalling that should any one of these 47 million people, living in what is arguably the the most devoutly Christian country on Earth, fall ill they will be asked for insurance details and things called "co-payments", and when they are discovered to be lacking these things they will be effectively denied medical care..
Admittedly it has been a few years since I last attended Sunday School, but I don't remember The Samaritan doing anything like that. Or Jesus.
  The right wing of America talk about the NHS as though it were some kind of Orwellian entity, a Ministry of Life, something evil, something "socialised", something that should be feared as the greatest threat to The American Dream since Cuba started smuggling cigars.
What the right wing of America do not seem so willing to talk about is the core of the NHS, its underlying principles: Christian values.

  Pehaps the cause of right wing America's suspicion (for want of a better word) of the NHS is that they do not recognise the NHS brand of Christianity, a brand of Christianity that prefers to do God's work quietly and efficiently rather than waste its energies shouting at teenagers in abortion clinics or preventing gay couples from celebrating their love in a civil ceremony.
  Perhaps the problem is much simpler, perhaps the problem is mere misunderstanding; as Sentor Grassley says "when you get to 77 your life is considered less valuable under these [NHS] systems" whilst in her article Janice Turner writes that her father, 86, "...collapsed at home, was brain-scanned until it was discovered that he had suffered a minor stroke. As a consultant attended him, physios assessed him and he was found a place in a rehabilitation unit, where he will spend a month recovering, I thought how the life of this elderly man - no high born statesman but a person of modest means - was treated as immensely precious.
  "Throuout this difficult week, in which I was plunged into the dark labyrinth that is geriatric care, I gave thanks that the least of my worries - and more importantly my father's - was money."

  In the past I have wondered what would become of me under the American healthcare system, and unlike most non-Americans I have not fallen into the trap of assuming that America has no state provisions for the old and the poor, indeed there is Medicare and Medicaid, as anyone who has watched ER or House MD will tell you.
I would fall under the Medicaid banner, because I am unutterably poor.
Under the system of Medicaid I would be guaranteed a good level of care and service, but not the the best available care and service. And yet, despite this distinction, as a user of Medicare I would be one of many who are unavoidably crippling America through the enormous cost of Medicare.
America's current state healthcare scheme is bankrupting America.
Nice.

  Most Britons know at least one person who has been through the American healthcare system, and if not there are always testimonies on the internet, but what I have learned the most from regarding healthcare in the US is the American TV channels we have been receiving here at the hostel for that last month due to a cock-up with the cable TV company (we're stealing it so we haven't complained).
  I found it unbelievable that doctors in the US will routinely order treatments, scans and operations based primarily on how much they can charge rather than what effect they will have on the patient, or that drug companies routinely advertise medicines on TV using adverts that seem to be designed to make you feel ill, listing the vaguest of symptoms, and then end with "Ask your doctor to prescribe you..." knowing that your doctor will probably do so simply because he can charge huge fees that will be taken from either your insurance company or, if you are under Medicare or Medicaid, the taxpayer, effectively taking a baseball bat to the already buckling economic-knees of the USA.
Whilst Britain was reeling from the MP's expenses scandal I was watching scandals of US doctors over-charging the country itself to pay for houses and cars I'm used to seeing in celebrity magazines, and yet President Obama wanting to divert this money from ill cribs to sick children is reason enough for most of his countrymen to demand his head, as though he were some kind of heretic or infidel.
The poor sod's blood pressure must be through the roof.

  Did you know that the US infant mortality is 6.3 per 1000 compared to the UK 4.8? When an internet friend of mine took a nasty fall he waited until he was certain he needed medical care for what felt like a broken arm. This wait lasted 24 hours, and ended only when his arm, from wrist to shoulder, turned black. He ended up being charged more than he would have been had he simply gone to hospital straight away without worrying about getting billed for unnecesary X-rays.
If you have ever broken a bone just imagine "dealing" with the pain for 24 hours, "making sure" its broken, simply because you're poor.

  Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pretend that the NHS is perfect; I've been through the system too many times to be able to do that, had to wait for too many hours because I'm not an emergency, stuggled to keep appointments set at inconvenient times during the working week (yes, I have worked) because most non-emergency departments shut down on weekends, struggled to sleep at night due to the incessant noise of the wards, and secretly prayed to a god I don't believe in that my attending staff aren't suffering from any stress related conditions that could affect their work, or aren't over-tired because they've been working for more hours in a single shift than most businessmen do in a week. What I do want to say is that what is perfect is the underlying principle of the National Health Service, which is something no American can say about their own healthcare system, and untill they can I think they should stop pointing fingers at our NHS.


P.S. If any Americans still feel like arguing over the NHS then think about this first:
  In the UK the bankruptcy pie is sliced between borrower stupidity, people being fired, and divorce settlements. In the US 70% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills.
Oh, by the way, you're looking a little peeky. Perhaps you should see a doctor?
Sleep well.
wink

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

Okay, I want to give this thread a swift execution before anyone takes it seriously.


Jesus wasn't a government philosopher.  His philosophies were meant to be the actions of an individual, not the actions of a government.  In fact, rarely, if ever, did Jesus even mention government policy within his teachings.

That being said, your attempt to butcher any semblance of a debate by saying we have some moral obligation to set up National Health care is bullshit.  First of all, the issue of whether universal health care works is a prerequisite issue to the moral obligation: you can't claim that your system is more Christian if your system doesn't achieve the goals of Christianity better than another system, can you?

There's one more issue, but I want to make a rant about this in a separate thread... later...

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

I like how your example of great care was the case of a minor stroke requiring no expensive treatment.

I like how you feel that I owe you medical care, among other things.

I like how you are not aware that big money being spent in healthcare is responsible for advancements in healthcare which, over time, come down in cost and become available to feeble, impoverished persons such as yourself.

I like how you generalize about what motivates doctors, presumably from <1% of doctors who break laws, though you are not a doctor nor do you know any.

The fact is, your NHS does not offer you all available care. Perhaps this is why your cancer survival rates lag behind the US's? You can get a minor stroke checked out. Congratulations. You can't get the most advanced cancer treatment payed for. Good luck? Just one example.

Your position is based on ignorance. You must be proud! Theoretically, you occupy a position of moral authority! Now, if only you could avoid a real education and never be confronted with reality...

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

4 (edited by Grushdeva 25-Aug-2009 17:30:56)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

Could you please give a source for that?
(edit: I refer to the assumption that the extra cash spent in the US is what makes the difference for the creation of new medicine worldwide)

5 (edited by Lizon 25-Aug-2009 21:47:25)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

We should be finding ways to reduce the overhead costs of healthcare in this country instead of trying to find ways to pay for our current overinflated costs.

The question people are asking is: How do we pay for healthcare?

The question they sould be asking is: How do we make healthcare cheaper?

They are fundamentally different questions.

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

NHS is crap - people say its free but it cost 98,700,000,000   thats 98 billion pounds ! a year - and everyone (who works) pays for it so its not free.  its a blackhole for money - just keeps eating it

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

to put that in usa terms to cover all 300million people in usa it would cost $806,000,000,000   800 billion !!!

is that good value ?

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

47 million American citizens live in fear of getting ill due to a lack of universal health care.



http://forums.canadiancontent.net/us-american-politics/85805-debunking-47-million-uninsured-americans.html


go read

9 (edited by Morbo the Annihilator 26-Aug-2009 00:16:34)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

You guys are looking too deeply into this.

Workers make the country, sick workers break the country...

EDIT:

And i have yet to see a proper cost-benefit analysis either way. So most arguments are either irrelevant (morale grounds) or baseless.

EDIT:

And also i agree with Lizon smile.

Morbo: Morbo can't understand his teleprompter. He forgot how you say that letter that looks like a man with a hat.
Linda: It's a 't'. It goes "tuh".
Morbo: Hello, little man. I will destroy you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

It aint 47 million American citizens, 20 million are illegals. Another 15 million are like me, I could probably fit it in but why bother?

Personally I think all the insurance has helped jack prices through the roof. I spent 2 days in hospital and it cost me $11,000.  Because if they send the bill to medicare, medicaid or insurance they'll accept 75%.
Because people with insurance pay for health care whether they use it or not.

I got news for a lot of ya, obama's fix is to require everybody to buy insurance. So copays are the answer here.

I file bankruptcies for a living, and nowhere are you required to list a cause. You are asked to explain what each debt is for, and itemize your expenses. I suspect 70% of BKs have some medical debt in them based on a sample, I'm sure nobody can afford to count what with 30 million filings.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

@ fokker : you ranter you !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL6KfGlztmQ&feature=related
The NHS Song - Amateur Transplants

till the end of time..

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

We got local and state pgrams. We got 305 million people here and I might as well accuse NHS of not covering Poland as complain we don't have a "national" plan, you don't have a continental program either! Vicious bastards!

Our state systems probably do as good for their size. if you had an all europe plan then come brag to us

Doctors don't run tests to run up the bill. Obama lied there. Doctors do 20 tests becuase the patient gets copies and can use them to shop for a doctor they like better. I'm sure the medical profession would like us forced to stick with the first doctor we walk in on. Its the idea we can't email our test results to fiften doctors in 3 states that has the other 290 million americans, who don't work in medicine, shouting "death panel".

Oh and I missed the part where yu refute stories about NHS turning folks away cause the budget is gone

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

Just so I understand... You have money for internet, you have money for the computer you access it on, you have ample free time to post in the forum of an internet game, you most like have a cell phone and cable tv... Yet you can't see where you can find the time/money to provide yourself with health insurance?  If your not bright enough to get a job bagging groceries at one of the supermarkets that offer health care then you also have an option of simply marrying someone who has health care.

When I was a young pup - I didn't have health insurance.  I didn't WANT to spend my money on it.  I instead spent my money on beer, cable tv and chasing girls much like many 16-26 year olds do - not once during that time was I "living in fear" of not having health care - it was a decison - MY DECISION.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

I looked into five years ago and it wouldn't cover the $300 a month I was spending for depression counseling and meds.  I'd have to spend an extra $100 a month for 8 months before saving 50% on prescriptions...so it cost me extra.

Now that I earn more I went to apply and I got denied outright because of a prior condition- depression. 

And now that I went to hospital that'll be a bigger strike.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

15 (edited by tavius 30-Aug-2009 02:11:21)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

U.S healthcare costs per person are the highest in the world by a v. large margin - that stat includes even those who fall ill and simply go without because they can't afford care. All universal healthcare countries have lower healthcare costs per person.

e.g The U.S devotes 16% of its GDP to healthcare while universal healthcare countries like Taiwan and Japan only have to spend around 5 - 6 % for better care and better coverage of patients.

If Obama can pull off a similar healthcare system, his administration is pretty much assured a prominent place in u.s history.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

the US pays alot for healthcare because the US is wealthy, and the wealthy are willing to pay more for better healthcare; they literally buy the best healthcare in the world, and that is a large amount of the money spent on healthcare in the US.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

From Hawaii to Maine is about 6000 miles. California to New York, 3000 miles.  300 million people.  Japan is what, 700km long?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

All i see is excuses...

Morbo: Morbo can't understand his teleprompter. He forgot how you say that letter that looks like a man with a hat.
Linda: It's a 't'. It goes "tuh".
Morbo: Hello, little man. I will destroy you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

People in those UHC countries get access to top class health services. It's not like they have to miss out on MRIs or complicated surgeries under their healthcare systems.

And I don't think country size makes much of a difference in this case - Australia which is an entire continent with only 20m ppl has lower healthcare expenses relative to gdp as well and it has universal healthcare.

20 (edited by avogadro 31-Aug-2009 21:47:54)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

> tavius wrote:

> People in those UHC countries get access to top class health services. It's not like they have to miss out on MRIs or complicated surgeries under their healthcare systems.

top class healthcare in the US isnt the people that get MRI's or complicated surgeries; thats pretty basic.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

All i see is excuses...


No, an excuse is a explanation of a failure to do something yuo ought to have done but failed to do. I'm just stating the facts about why we shouldn't bother.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

22 (edited by Sticks 01-Sep-2009 07:29:37)

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

One of the biggest problems i see with the US health care system is that the insurance company's are not subject to anti trust laws, which makes them more or less a cartel, that's not a free market and its one issue neither political party will even mention let alone do anything about.

✞✝✞ Șώεετ ɖરεᎯɱȘ ✞✝✞

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

I think they are subject to those laws. But acturial tables are like engineering tables, anybody can use them and everybody can use them.

The Dems want them organized into a govt cartel called an exchange, so good luck finding a champion. They like the insurance model, because it gets everybody to pay monthly whether they use the system or not

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

Health insurance and major league baseball are the only 2 enterprises that are not subject to anti trust law's in the USA so they can legally set there prices with there competition this is one of the ways the insurance company's increased there profit ratio on average of 400% since 2001,  I agree with you Chris about the dem's plans but i haven't seen anything out of the repub's other then calling for tort reform which over 40 states have already done with no cost savings to the consumer. If your on the left or the right of this issue there are not any easy or pleasant answers to the problem and doing nothing just wont cut it because there will gradually be less and less people insured that will go to the emergency room for care which will raise the cost of health insurance for those that are.

✞✝✞ Șώεετ ɖરεᎯɱȘ ✞✝✞

Re: US shouldn't diss the NHS

Gordon Brown was warned last night to raise the retirement age above 65 and introduce NHS charges to tackle the soaring state deficit.
In a devastating intervention, the International Monetary Fund called for radical changes to the pension system and spending cuts that go far beyond the plans outlined by the Prime Minister this week.
The global watchdog said root and branch changes to public sector spending would be necessary to 'help keep a lid on the debt' and restore financial stability.
Under threat: The IMF has long advocated that Britain introduce charges and bring an end to the high cost, free for all NHS and has renewed its call for action

The IMF's broadside is highly unusual ahead of an election and reflects grave concern at the debt mountain built up by the Brown government.

The public reprimand will rekindle memories of the humiliation of the Callaghan government in 1976 when the IMF forced massive budget cuts on Britain to deal with the collapse of the pound.
Treasury ministers privately admit that the budget deficit is expected to rise to

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.