I have not read Obama's healthcare plan.
and I have not seen facts that the dutch system is more expensive, more slow and gets more people killed.

does obama have a healthcare plan?
i asked for details on this forum several times.. no one could provide me..
onyl thing i heard from him is something like "we need some kind of what you got in europe, but for america".

primo.. there are no facts about that i guess.
the most expensive is the US.. as the stats i have watched dutch is one of the quickest and most efficient systems at all...

Consider please, and if you cannot look it up then gtfo, the cancer survival rates.

The plan we will have under Tom Daschle, who is still deeply involved (coming thread about that in fact) will be so much worse than anything you guys can dream of, because it's about a culture of corruption and messiness than an effort to help the disadvantaged.

The United States has the highest rates of survival for breast and prostate cancers, while Japan has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancers among men. France has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancer among women, the report found.

There's also a significant difference in cancer survival rates between the United States and Europe, with survival rates 10 percent and 34 percent higher in the United States for breast cancer and prostate cancer, respectively, the study found.

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IMPORTANT HERE

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Cancer survival rates in Britain are among the lowest in Europe, according to the most comprehensive analysis of the issue yet produced....

England is on a par with Poland despite the NHS spending three times more on health care.

Survival rates are based on the number of patients who are alive five years after diagnosis and researchers found that, for women, England was the fifth worst in a league of 22 countries. Scotland came bottom. Cancer experts blamed late diagnosis and long waiting lists.

While the US led the way with more than 13% of gross domestic product spent on health, Canada, Australia and the best-performing European nations were all spending about 9% to 10%.

The UK was spending just over 7% but that figure has now been increased following record rises in the NHS budget to bring it much closer to the likes of France and Germany.

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DID YOU READ THAT?

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We spend more than you do... by far, and we have 'gaps'. That is because the culture of corruption. With that much cash in say Japans system (equal amount of GDP) or in Sweden (yes you have some decent care there, normally we compare out England, which is the model Daschle wants) you would have astonishing care, with personal nurses assigned (I expect) per patient.

We spend so much, yet get 'so little'.

Now some of that is a farce, in the world your chances of survival are overall BEST in the United States.

This goes for other conditions as well, such as heart disease.

In fact if you make our standards for 'live births' of children who die within 5 days of birth into 'still born' like all other nations on Earth, we come to 3rd in life expectancy.

Now someone mentioned "where you live" in the United States. This is very correct.

http://www.sunarc.org/coloncancer.htm

Please examine the regions in red. This is the 'New England and other "Liberal" states sort of region' where public health care is more prevalent than private health care. Also note the red in California, at a certain city

Never EVER confuse US liberalism, US Health Care, and US 'Socialism' with what you have in Europe. Never do this, and you might finally understand that there is a huge difference between you two, and indeed between the parties of the United States.

Yes but this is a great indicator.

Also though there is this:

he size of the generic marketPdf external  differs widely in the various EU member states. Generics make up a relatively large part of the pharma market in Germany (41%), Sweden (39%), Denmark (22-40%), the UK (22%) and the Netherlands (12%). In Italy, Spain and Portugal, generics barely count for 1% of the pharma market, compared to 3-4% in France. By contrast, generic medicines in the United States account for 40% of all prescribed medicines.

These differences are mainly a consequence of the different policies followed by the member states. Among the main factors affecting the size of the generic market are:

    * market conditions for new medicines;
    * pricing/reimbursement structures;
    * prescribing/dispensing traditions;
    * requirements;
    * the existence of specific incentives to encourage generic use.

Then to look at say this:

A comparison of relevant UK studies indicates that about half of people who have a heart attack die within 28 days.

Data from the OXMIS Study shows that of those who die within 28 days of having a heart attack, three quarters die within the first 24 hours.   

Incidence

The NHS poor record on cancer survival has been published before. It is bad, it is embarrassing and action needs to be taken on it. However, I am have quite a philosophical view about death in that everybody has to die of something. If people in the UK are dying more of cancer than say in the USA. Well, that just means people in the USA are dying more of something different... In which case you can find the thing that people die more from in the USA, publish that comparatively and have the same bragging post in reverse. It is pretty meaningless. The evidence that the life expectancies are pretty much the same suggests that there is not an awful lot different about the average care people receive. However, it is fairly well known that in the USA the rich receive good healthcare and the poor get shit all whereas in the UK everybody gets the same, even if that does mean it is all a bit mediocre. It just depends on your viewpoint whether you are selfish and dont mind other people suffering just so you will be ok or whether you can see that all men have just as much right to life as all others.

Depends on what kind of credit card you have, right?

I have never been to a US hospital and you know I haven't and I know you are dying for me to say "tell me, what services can I get if I walk into a US hospital?" so, go on then...

However, conversely I know that you have never experienced a UK hospital and your judgments are equally unionformed as mine.

Sitting Duck then you do not have a clue.

An emergency room cannot deny services for any life threatening condition, nor can it refuse services for any reason at all. Yes they can bill you later, but they cannot deny you services.

Now there are two things not covered in general by our health system. Long term care (If it is transplants, alzhiemers, etc), and Medicines.

To get medicines you will need to ask for a Generic or less strong version (then get the generic) for $5 at Walmart.

To get longterm care you apply for it with the help of the hospital to the local health administrator. If you have a terminal but treatable condition that will not require a transplant and uses established medicines approval is automatic. Yes I said automatic.

Things not covered include parkinsons (no treatment is truly effective, though they assist with meds that reduce the effects), alzheimers (again no treatment is truly effective), and the likes.

Transplants fall into a special catagory here, there is a waiting list and there is a cost for the procedure.

Now if treatment in an ER includes a medicine while you are in the ER it is covered, as part of the emergency care.

You cannot be refused under any circumstances, period.

That is why there are complaints of the costs Illegal Aliens add to California and other border states.

Yes you can expect a bill for Emergency Room treatments, but ultimately if you never can pay, you still cannot be refused from future ER room visits.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/27/opinion/main3105523.shtml

this article pretty mush reflects my oppinion.

first of all you can not simply generalize "socialized healthcare" and you can not compare the US to Europe as a whole.
When u compare the US to Great Britain allways remember that Great Britain (at the moment, thanks Tony) within the EU has one of the worst healthcare systems.
UK spending also is on the lower level.

About the cancer.. as i pointed out before, it depends on the kind of cancer u have where u have the best chances for a cure.
Overall you could say that the chances in general to survive cancer are a lil better in the US then in the EU.
Another point about cancer is the time a new curing method needs to be introduced into practical use.
The US is quicker in this then some European countries.. but then again.. other Euro countries are on your level.

That myth about the long waiting times in socialized systems is and stays a myth and propaganda tool.

About the generics.. you posted yourself that it varies a lot between european countries.. from what you say in germany generics are even more sold then in the US.
So that also seems to be no point where the US wins since there are socialized systems which have higher numbers then the US.

Also i would like to mention that i do not feel like i need to make u believe in socialzed systems..
I try not to attack the american systems because it also has its good side.
I only get a lil crazy when i hear these clueless accusations against socialized healthcare.. specially since there is no "socialized healthcare" as one thing since it differs a lot from country to country.

Oh and the fact that u can mostly find statistics about the UK may have something to do with the fact that the UK (god forgive me if i am wrong and forgot a country like Malta) is the only english speaking nation in Europe. For stats about France, Germany or Sweden or whoever u will have to google in french, german, swedish etc....

ok, i edited that for you;)