51 Reply by Acolyte (edited by Acolyte 16-May-2009 19:54:52)

  • Posts: 385

Re: My Conservative Platform

In my feeble mind, there are only two systems of economic organization. There is public control of the means of production (socialism) and private control of the means of production (capitalism). Any concept of a system that somehow mixes both is inherently contradictory, and exists in a perpetual struggle between the two extremes. The United States, for example, has been leaning progressively towards socialism since at least the late 18th century. In truth, it has been on the path since its inception, yet the anti-capitalistic mentality grew incredibly stronger with the advent of labor unions.

Fascism, on the other hand, is a political ideology. Political ideologies can exist independent of their economic ideologies, yet no matter how they arrive at their conclusions, the result is invariably the same: A totalitarian government that assumes command of the production and distribution of resources. Therefore, any permutation of statism is socialist by default, no matter how small its beginnings or how limited its role. Government, after all, is what Robert LeFevre coined a law factory, it's sole purpose is the authoring, passing, and enforcing of laws. With the enactment of each new law, the state increases its size, power, and even revenue (in the form of tax, tariff, fine, and fee) exponentially.

The State is a parasite on the productive forces of society, and socialism is the philosophy of parasitism. Like an infectious disease, it will thrive off the trade and the wealth created by others. The State can not, by itself, generate wealth; it has no profit-or-loss mechanism, it does not produce anything, it can only destroy. Once it has infected every sector of economic activity, only then will the house of cards collapse in on itself. This is why every government, and every empire in history, has eventually come to a conclusion. If you think it won't happen anymore, think again. I'm sure the Romans never thought they'd see a day when they did not rule all of the known world. Even Britannia was forced to make concessions by the close of World War II. It exists today only because of these reforms, yet eventually it will be no more. Just as one day, there will be no more United States of America.

It won't happen in our lifetimes, it won't happen in our childrens' lifetimes, it may not even happen in our grandchildrens' lifetimes. Rome lasted for over a thousand years, cycling through various stages which served only to increase its oppression, before it finally came to an end; the details of which are far beyond the scope of this summary. Regardless, the lesson is clear: Government has failed.

Caution Wake Turbulence

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

52 Reply by Selur Ku (edited by Selur Ku 16-May-2009 11:47:51)

  • Posts: 1,355
  • Tag points: 54

Re: My Conservative Platform

"there are only two systems of economic organization. There is public control of the means of production (socialism) and private control of the means of production (capitalism). "

This is only true if you choose to categorise in this way. If I choose to categorise all motor vehicles as either having automatic transmission or manual then there are only two types of motor vehicle.

Some vital differences between fascism and Socialism:

Fascism supports Private ownership of means of production, Socialism supports public ownership.

Big business loves fascism but hates socialism, the Italian Fascists were bankrolled by Pirelli and other industrialists, Hitler was heavily backed by thyssen/Kruups.

Socialism supports workers rights and trade unionism, Fascism crushes those rights.

The US is more than happy to do business with Fascist dictators and even helps organise coups to overthrow democratically elected governments and replace  them with their freindly fascist puppet. On the other hand the US does everything it can to destroy socialist governments.

Capitalism is a parasite on the backs of the working class, a capitalist cannot by itself generate wealth, it thrives on the blood and sweat of cheap labour.

Of course no system of government or economy lasts forever, but that applies equally to capitalism.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 14,366
  • Tag points: 68

Re: My Conservative Platform

There are no "rights" in socialism that workers can claim against their government

Banks are finding that out right now

Under Bush the banks were given an offer they could not refuse, literally. Bush's Treasury Secretary ordered them to accept loans they didn't want. Paulson told them in writing that if they refused, bank regulators at the Fed would order it anyway and if they just "volunteered" Treasury would announce they were a solvent bank. So any holdouts would NOT be declared solvent and would be publicly ordered to get $$$ by the "independent" regulator, and guess what happens to the stock of a bank in that mess?

Paulson's letter has been published under the Freedom of Information Act by a bunch of wingers who won't roll over

Now Paulson's Asst, Geitner, holds the chair and refuses to let banks pay off these loans, orders them to borrow more, and wants to control who sits on their boards.

Sadly for the Washington Gang we do not have a socialist constitution and if it were worth the trouble--and its headed that way-- a bank can sue the govt to force the govt to accept a payoff or void the debt.

Under socialism there's no basis to complain, the govt is supposed to coordinate the market ignoring the best interests of the immediate players.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 1,355
  • Tag points: 54

Re: My Conservative Platform

you're confusing shareholders with workers

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

55 Reply by avogadro (edited by avogadro 16-May-2009 18:35:47)

  • Posts: 3,454

Re: My Conservative Platform

> Selur Ku wrote:

> And the alternative to government is your fantasy world where you can do as you like with your fantasy private army.

dream on


first of all, im not an anarchist, im a libertarian; i just pointed out that socialists have turned what anarchy is into something it isnt, to make it look bad, because they want big government.  2nd, where the hell did you get this private army fantasy from? sounds like your fantasy, not mine. and anarchy does exist on a small scale all over the place.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

56 Reply by EliteInternetWarrior (edited by EliteInternetWarrior 16-May-2009 22:46:09)

  • Posts: 93

Re: My Conservative Platform

Selur Ku - if you are going to parrot ideology like a freshly graduated college student, at least act like you can write in a convincing and proper manner.

Pure capitalism neither punishes nor awards what you don't deserve. Don't study? Your problem. Do study? Good for you. Get a degree and make money, without a government reassigning wealth to those that don't.

Other examples can be readily applied.

I have seen fire safety violations and sanitation violations - those very same designed to ensure the "evil elitists" don't poison you - break GOOD small businesses, yet the punishment (several thousand dollars I'd imagine), barely registers as anything on the radar of McDonald's - or BurgerKing - or BestBuy - or WalMart, etc. Taxes, unions, all that, don't really server to hinder these huge corporations as they are already on such a large scale of profit that these matters don't bother them.

Another example - pork. I once knew this Hungarian deli who sold a form of smoked sausage. Well they shut him down for a single case of Listeria. Done. Yet the Sabrett's hotdog plant does not have any trouble at all churning out hotdogs even after they have had multiple cases of listeria appear in their products about 10 years ago.

It is known and intended by neo-feudalists such as yourself to hamstring the middle class. Not the worker or the ruler, but those most likely to make a difference.



Why else does the middle class complain more than anyone else about taxes?

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

57 Reply by Selur Ku (edited by Selur Ku 16-May-2009 23:58:22)

  • Posts: 1,355
  • Tag points: 54

Re: My Conservative Platform

"It is known and intended by neo-feudalists such as yourself to hamstring the middle class"

Do you even have a clue what feudalism is?

and you accuse me of spouting ideology parrrot fashon after your pathetic irrelevant rant above ?

look in the mirror.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

58 Reply by EliteInternetWarrior (edited by EliteInternetWarrior 17-May-2009 01:27:11)

  • Posts: 93

Re: My Conservative Platform

> Selur Ku wrote:

> "It is known and intended by neo-feudalists such as yourself to hamstring the middle class"

Do you even have a clue what feudalism is?



I know what it is.



>and you accuse me of spouting ideology parrrot fashon after your pathetic irrelevant rant above ?

look in the mirror.


Here, let me just requote your entire ran- err missive.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"there are only two systems of economic organization. There is public control of the means of production (socialism) and private control of the means of production (capitalism). "

This is only true if you choose to categorise in this way. If I choose to categorise all motor vehicles as either having automatic transmission or manual then there are only two types of motor vehicle.

Some vital differences between fascism and Socialism:

Fascism supports Private ownership of means of production, Socialism supports public ownership.

Big business loves fascism but hates socialism, the Italian Fascists were bankrolled by Pirelli and other industrialists, Hitler was heavily backed by thyssen/Kruups.

Socialism supports workers rights and trade unionism, Fascism crushes those rights.

The US is more than happy to do business with Fascist dictators and even helps organise coups to overthrow democratically elected governments and replace  them with their freindly fascist puppet. On the other hand the US does everything it can to destroy socialist governments.

Capitalism is a parasite on the backs of the working class, a capitalist cannot by itself generate wealth, it thrives on the blood and sweat of cheap labour.

Of course no system of government or economy lasts forever, but that applies equally to capitalism.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I was offering practical and real-life examples of why socialist, paternalistic policies destroy the middle class. I wasn't ranting, I was providing an opinion and supporting it with examples that I have SEEN in REAL LIFE. The class room can only go so far, y'know.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

59 Reply by Selur Ku (edited by Selur Ku 17-May-2009 19:00:45)

  • Posts: 1,355
  • Tag points: 54

Re: My Conservative Platform

@ EIW

I suggest you re-read.

My post was in response to Acolyte's ludicrous assertion that Fascism = Socialism.

I simply pointed out a few of the patently obvious factual differences, I wasnt actually advocating either.

Then you came along blathering at me about regulation of small busineses, which has absolutley zero relevance to my post.  fwiw i could post a thousand "real -life" examples of how lack of regulation has killed thousands. Would you be happy for Union Carbide to operate as unregulated in the USA as they did in India ? in any case thats a whole different argument to the point I was making.

Then you finish up with the absurd statement:

"It is known and intended by neo-feudalists such as yourself to hamstring the middle class"

Which is clear proof that a) It is you that is simply mouthing slogans b) you have no clue what you're talking about.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points