Topic: Russia Military Modernization

[Url]http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE5471KF20090508?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0[/Url]

the background:

Basically Russia's military has shown significant weaknesses during last years war in Georgia. much of its equipment is from the soviet-era.

lack of drones meant Russia actually sent out a Tu-22m bomber to reconnoiter which got shot down by a Georgian SAM.
lack of precision smart bombs & missiles meant Russia's capability from the air was significantly reduced.

Many of Russia's vehicles were old- and obsolete. Ever wondered why Russian soldiers sit on the outside of vehicles such as the BMP1/BMP2? a single RPG hit was shown in Chechnya to be able to lethal in most cases, with poor fuel tank design & weak protection created a fireball inside.
Russia has BMP3 IFVs in service but none were seen in Georgia.

Units got lost due to lack of GPS. Russia has yet to bring its own GPS system operational as it needs to launch more satellites in orbit.
Russia's communication equipment was Soviet-era.


Tanks deployed were often old kit, presumably pulled out of reserve, many broke down en route- on footage I saw numerous T62m tanks in use. which is a 60's era design, modernized (hence 'm') in the 1980s.

T72 tanks seemed to be the mainstay of the force but no sign of Russia's latest tank the T90- its only in service in small numbers. (the T90 itself is basically an advanced T72 with many features from the T80- but its only a stopgap before a newer design comes along)

Russia used Su-24 attack aircraft, though state-of-the-art in the 70s & 80's they are now growing old. its replacement the Su-34 has only just recently entered service (even though the prototype first flew shortly before the collapse of the USSR)

As for troops- many in Georgia were militia or cossack irregulars. as for Officers many are not capable for combat operations.

Russia's military is only 1/4 the size of the 4.5 million Soviet military and isnt significantly more advanced in technology. most are still poorly trained badly motivated conscripts.

the period from 1992-2002 saw the dark days for the Russian economy and therefore its vast military went into major decline. for instance in 1983 the Red Navy conducted over 200 nuclear submarine patrols, by 2002 most of the fleet were idle in dock & conducted no patrols. dozens of older subs just rusted away. with no money to scrap them.


the Russian airforce faced similar problems with pilots recieving little training due to lack of funds, planes sat idle. equipment not maintained.

now:

under Putin & now Medvedev Russia is modernizing its military. the intent to make it smaller, more mobile, more modern and more capable.
new IFVs are being introduced, new tank support vehicle the 'Terminator' is introduced.
Russia is upgrading its soviet nuclear weapons. including a new 'stealth' design to avoid missile shields.
new submarines & ships to replace obsolete designs.
Officers now face strict tests - up to half face being fired.
Its own GPS system is on its way.

Russia is creating a Professional army as time & time again conscripts have proved to be inferior. (in chechnya Russian conscripts were pwned by rebels who were afghan veterans)

Russia has seen how powerful the US army has been with professional troops, modern equipment and efficient structure has been in Iraq and Afghanistan and Medvedev is keen on emulating this. But the army is resistant to change.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Russia Military Modernization

The old army was probably becoming a pain just to maintain. Upgrading it will cut costs and increase efficiency in the long run. Right now they have the public support over there to justify the increased spending so their capitalizing on it. Nothing wrong with that, it's in their self intrest.

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: Russia Military Modernization

Stealth Missiles? Ha I laugh, they can try, we are like 5 generations ahead.

IFV's... oh noes! They will get us with lightly armored vehicles!

Submarines... yeah good luck there, we stole Red October remember? tongue



Honestly Russia did so poorly in the fight with Georgia that I laughed. Hearing that they lost a bomber is icing on the cake for me. And Russia has always relied upon numbers to do what they need. They think they can fix up? HAHA

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

Stealth missiles is a dumb idea. Shooting down a stealth aircraft is far easier to do. Russia's navel forces however have always been reasonably good. Their maps of the ocean terrain are top notch and it gives them a huge advantage in many situations. While their forces have taken a back seat as of late it wouldn't take long for their submarine fleet to re-catch up to ours. Their air force I find really interesting. Their new aircraft designs are quite pretty good and seems to be the one area that really hasn't slacked off behind ours. They've kept up pretty well all things considering.

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: Russia Military Modernization

well analysts criticized the Russian Navy in the 90s. funds dried up yet they still tried to keep as many ships & subs in service (as a matter of pride i guess) the result was they were wasting all the money they had on keeping too many ships in service & paying too many sailors. the result was clear to see. subs & ships ended up rusting, safety accidents etc

overall only 10% of Russia's equipment is modern. and they really need to professionalize the personnel they have.

Russia knows that its days of a super power are long gone but they have a hard time accepting it. & their military needs to wake up.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Russia Military Modernization

Their secret aircraft programs were revealed with the fall, all of them.

Ours kept going, aka the Aurora which is so light years ahead of any Russian design.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

if you actually believe that the Aurora is a viable weapons platform then I have some oceanfront property in New Mexico that I want to sell you. ^.^

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: Russia Military Modernization

Actually since I met a guy who made the science for the Aurora... the carbon nanofiber I talk about, and got told by him of a lot of the science behind the material, and since I have a few other associates I have met who have told me a little here and there, and since I have seen some evidence of it's existence, and then dug deep enough to find it's true capabilities..


I would say you best tell me when California sank tongue

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

The technology was used in the construction of the space shuttle. Big deal, even I know that. It was a research project to test aircraft at high altitudes. This does not mean it's a viable weapons system.

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: Russia Military Modernization

the Soviets actually built their own shuttle called the Buran but it only ever flew once. its amazing that even in the late 80s with their econmic problems they wasted so much money on it. wild analysts said that the US shuttle could deliver nukes but it was rubbish & even tho they were sceptical they still built their own.

it flew one mission by computer & that was it.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Russia Military Modernization

That shuttle was built using some of the plans from the shuttle. ^.^ Course having the plans for the shuttle and the technology to build one are 2 different things. Which is why they only built one and it only flew once.

Fear not the Darkness, for without it there is no Light. Embrace the Light, for it brings forth Darkness. Embrace both, to embrace the gift of Life. ~Kai Master Creed
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Re: Russia Military Modernization

The US shuttle is derived from WWII German technology...

You have of course heard the complaints of the Cosmonauts in the International Space Station, ISS right?

There is a feud going on with each group forced to use their own facilities, and the Russian Cosmonauts are upset at their nation for starting it cause their equipment and facilities are 30 years behind the others stuff tongue

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

russia has loads of titanium ore so it was cheaper for the USSR than anywhere else in teh world, that's one reason


In 1995 5000 Russian soldiers were surrounded and surrendered to the Chechens.  If Bush had shoved we probably could have got enough to the Georgians to stop 40,000 ruskis cold.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

14 (edited by Chris_Balsz 08-May-2009 23:16:54)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

Yeah, that's why the Japs own Guadacanal!

Dude that hasn't worked since First Ypres.  You take territory with firepower.  You HOLD territory with firepower even easier.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Russia Military Modernization

ph34r zeh c0mm13s !

till the end of time..

Re: Russia Military Modernization

as a matter of fact the Soviet Shuttle was superior to the American one. remember NASA designed their shuttle in the 70s. the CCCP was using 80s technology. hence why their shuttle was able to take off in bad weather and land by computer only 10ft off target.

it NEVER flew again because they had no more money & it was a pointless spacecraft- the Soyuz already did what the Soviets needed.

while millions queued for food - billions were wasted on an pointless project.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Russia Military Modernization

CCCP tech in the 1980s WAS 1970s tech

In their world Bill Gates would have been counting trees, the insolent little prick

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Russia Military Modernization

"In their world Bill Gates would have been counting trees, the insolent little prick"
If bill would have had, we would have been much more advanced with a lot of IT tech. However, one can say our tech was more advanced DESPITE bill, and that is an achievement.

Ussr was stupid in the first place to keep up with US military. Russia is doing it again.

Re: Russia Military Modernization

the only difference now is that US is the country majorly in debt wink

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Russia Military Modernization

"There is a feud going on with each group forced to use their own facilities, and the Russian Cosmonauts are upset at their nation for starting it cause their equipment and facilities are 30 years behind the others stuf"

Their equipment is the most reliable around though, and Russians are rather proud of it.
Stop making this thread into an America-has-the-biggest-dick-contest Flint, it doesn't work..

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Russia Military Modernization

WFS source please?

I mean honestly...

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Russia Military Modernization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_accidents_and_incidents

"Soyuz accidents have claimed the lives of four, versus fourteen for Shuttle accidents (however, the maximum capacity of the Shuttle is larger than that of the Soyuz, resulting in a higher death toll per incident). No deaths have occurred on Soyuz missions since 1971, and none with the current design of the Soyuz. Including the early Soyuz design, the average deaths per launched crew member on Soyuz are currently under two percent. However, there have also been several serious injuries, and some other incidents in which crews nearly died."

There have been other incidents indeed, but those were "minor ones".. At the end of the day, you want to board the one that gives you the highest chance of returning to earth alive..

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Russia Military Modernization

> Einstein wrote:
> WFS source please?
I mean honestly... <

Irony AND hypocrisy? Niiice...



> Wild Flower Soul wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_accidents_and_incidents

"Soyuz accidents have claimed the lives of four, versus fourteen for Shuttle accidents (however, the maximum capacity of the Shuttle is larger than that of the Soyuz, resulting in a higher death toll per incident). No deaths have occurred on Soyuz missions since 1971, and none with the current design of the Soyuz. Including the early Soyuz design, the average deaths per launched crew member on Soyuz are currently under two percent. However, there have also been several serious injuries, and some other incidents in which crews nearly died."

There have been other incidents indeed, but those were "minor ones".. At the end of the day, you want to board the one that gives you the highest chance of returning to earth alive.. <


Also partly to do with Russian engineering philosophies: If it can be done simply, do it simply. (think pencil joke)

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Russia Military Modernization

Swedes,Poles,French,,Germans,Russia defeated them all and still is the largest country on earth.
So i guess they must have done something right?

The

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Russia Military Modernization

exactly.

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...