1 (edited by Econ 07-May-2009 02:41:05)

Topic: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

(edit: I wish I could edit the title.... I would add "and why I choose to side with the democrats")

Occasionally I like to remind people that I don't really love Obama/democrats - it's just that they are so much closer to the centre than the republicans, so I can't help side with them.

I thought  a quick comparison between the parties would be interesting. Note I did not say that NZs are better, or that it is a comparision between the political system, just the parties within it.

New Zealand currently has 122 seats in the house of representatives.
National     58
Labour     43
Green     9
ACT      5
Māori           5
Progressive     1
United Future     1    

National has agreements with ACT, United Future and Maori parties. They are not a coalition, they just have supply and confidence arrangements.

Where they sit on the political spectrum Left <---> Right, is the main point I wish to make. This is my interpretation of it, I'd like to see someone like You_Fool to share their thoughts.

NZ:
Greens        Maori Party   Labour  |  National   United Future              Act

US:
[..............Democratic...............]  |                               [...............Republican............]

Reasons my posts are generally on the side of the democrats in the IC forum:
1. The huge gap on the centre-right; in my perception.
2. They do not appear to take so much of their policies and insipration from the supernatural. (edit: democrats that is)
3. They tend to be the underdogs on the IC forums.
4. Palin.

(edited this last bit afterwards... just to expand on those points a little).
There are other parties in NZ that are not in parliament. One sits right on the border between left & right, they claim to be dead centre. They just missed out on making it into parliament, although before that they were in there for about 10 years in a row. But still National/UF seem to fill a nice gap that, in my opinion, exists in the US.

Also missing are parties that have a christian theme. They are waaaaay out. Not even close to getting in. Yet NZ doesn't seem like such a bad country. God has not taken out his vengence on us yet.

There seem to be so many republican contributors to this forum.

And Palin.... gosh that woman was scarey. I loved the Palin vs Biden debate. He actually said stuff. She said "oh it's all about job creation and going out there and creating jobs and alaska is next to russia and we have to work hard and I love you and lets create jobs".

I have voted for 3 different parties in NZs last 3 elections, FYI.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

>I don't really love Obama/democrats - it's just that they are so much closer to the centre than the republicans, so I can't help side with them.


What do you mean by center? Do you mean the center between liberalism and conservatism? Both parties have liberals and conservatives in them. Bush was a liberal. His bank bailout is proof of this.

Obama is a more extreme Bush.

Rehabilitated IC developer

3 (edited by Econ 07-May-2009 02:40:18)

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism

Sure, but I wasn't talking about individuals, I was talking about the party as a whole.

Perhaps I should take the 's' off of the end in my little chart thing to make it more obvious

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

Personally I think that your diagram can be re-aligned.

First National and Labour should over-lap a bit, the right of labour should fit in with the just left of central national. United Future should be much more centralist than you have them, probably being completly over-lapped by the right of labour and the left of national. It is the reason they do not get that many votes, because the people who would can and do vote for either National or Labour. They are in fact much more centralist than NZF anyway. Also the Democrats should be moved further right, mostly because you are missing the Greens from the US spectrum (they are the 3rd biggist party there too.) You could also show the  left of the republicans leaving the party in their droves because of the idiotic direction the party is going, mostly under the direction of morons like those extreme right wingers on this board.

I think that the republician party needs to re-align itself, much like the national party has done, to sit further to the left. The problem at the moment all around the world is that the extremists are holding nations to ransom, and for no good reason. Be it left wing, right wing, religious, whatever, the extremists are yelling the loudest and getting the attention, mostly by virtue of being extreme. This has distorted politics and dragged parties too far away from the centre in an attempt to apease these extreme elements who make the most noise. Luckily what this tends to bring about is a massive move in voters, as the party ignores their concerns. This happened to National here throughout most of their time in opposition, shown most clearly by Don Brash. Sure he managed to get a better result than english, but he also got a better result for labour as everyone got out to ensure that divisive and extremist action did not prosper. The National party learned from this with Key, who made sure he was seen to be much more central, and is continuing to do that with his deals with the Maori, United and Green parties. (Though his agreement with the greens is less solid than the other two.) He even went as far as to make sure everyone knew that if Roger Douglas got back in he would not be on the treasury benches. This was a calculated move, knowing that even if ACT got pissed off there was nothing they could do about it, whihc ensured people were not scared off by extreme budgets like what ACT propose. The republicians are currently in a position like National has been in, and they will not recover in a meaningful way until the party re-aligns itself more towards the views of the american population, despite what some people here may think. The main problem maybe that the democrats have also pressed to far into the left field of politics and will therefore not be able to adequately pick up the republicans dropped ball. If they have ben moved too far left then the extremist republicans could keep their party anchored in the extreme right, hoping for a democrat slip-up which will swing voters back to the right, even if it is further right than they are happy with. However if this keeps up for too long then more centralist party will spring up (i understand their is a reivival of the modern whig party with this objective in mind.) This could spell the end for one of the parties, depending on where this centralist party picks up most of its voters, and with a democrat in power atm that would be off the more right of centre voters, leaving the republicans out of pocket.

Really political parties need to treat elections like a stock market and be ready to adjust as oppinions change over the course of a decade or so. For sure stay in a position for a resonable time, but be ready to see where the shifts come, and always, always ignore the extreme factions of your party, if need be you can let them break away and form their own party, I mean look at how New Labour did for Jim Anderton, for awhile he was seperate from labour, but now he may as well be a labour seat, he doesn't even get enough party votes to bring in extra people anymore, and that was a split because he thought Labour was too far right at  the time, a time when ppublic oppinion was more suited to right wing politics.


For your benifit I willl try put a diagram of political parties as I see them...


     |----------left--------------------centre--------------------right----------|

                         |-----------Labour------------|                      |---Act---|
                  |-----Maori-----|    |------------National-------------|
     |----Greens----|             |---United Future---|
                        |---|                    |-----NZF-----|
                  Progressives


    |---US Greens---|                         |~~~~~~~Republican----------|
    and other left wing             |----------Democrat----------|          |----|
        US parties                                                                other right wing US parties
                             
           

I think the ~~~ part of the republicans are the ones fleeing the party for the democrats, the centre right voters who are annoyed at how the republician party is drifting further right. The time for correction iss upon us and hopefully the Republicians realise this.

I personally lean towards labour (the democrats) mostly because they don't sound like dicks when they speak and their policies are generally geared in the right direction. The nats (and republicans) generally manage to say one or two things that makes me not want to vote for them at all, esp when the things I like about them happen to over lap in the Labou idealogy. That said I look at ACT and agree with many of their principles except a few, and its those few that I completly disregard them on, and this is mostly around the ill-dounded notion that the government in their view should be around to punish people not help them, whilst I am of the opposing and opposite view.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

wow you put a lot more effort and thought into your one. Thx! Respect! zzz time now so I'll look at it proper in the morning.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

"For sure stay in a position for a resonable time, but be ready to see where the shifts come, and always, always ignore the extreme factions of your party, if need be you can let them break away and form their own party, I mean look at how New Labour did for Jim Anderton, for awhile he was seperate from labour, but now he may as well be a labour seat, he doesn't even get enough party votes to bring in extra people anymore, and that was a split because he thought Labour was too far right at  the time, a time when ppublic oppinion was more suited to right wing politics."


I can not agree to this. We had this situation in germany. Center left governing Party SPD for a long time worked against their left wing. In the end.. A huge bunge of people left the SPD and formed a new LEFT party together with what was left over of the communists.
Thus leads to the situation that we now have the SPD who get around 20% of the votes instead of 30-40 before. And we have the LEFT party who get 10-15%.
SPD and LEFT party wont do a coalition because there is somehow bad blood between them.
So for the next years germany is doomed to have a center right goverment or a liberal/left coalition of 3 parties.
Both is not really what i think is needed for a good working goverment.

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

In which case it shows a lack of flexibility by the SPD and apparently a lack of ability to learn/change after the fact to pick up new voters, or bring in old voters who have split.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

u mean.. they should be flexible enough to follow the extreme left views of the splitters?

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

no, but flexible enough to move with the voters, not completly left... maybe a little right? who knows

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

there is no space for them in the center right spectre.. there  u have the other big party CDU.. they only could go left.. but due to this split a whole bunch of the very left is lost to them.
I dont know how it is in australia.. but here.. now.. if the Social Democratic Party would start stating center right thesis.. no one would believe them anymore and they would probablly go down to less then 10%.
also.. wouldnt ur theory lead to a even bigger ammount of populism in politics then we allready have?

11 (edited by Econ 07-May-2009 17:25:44)

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

Where did the australia comment come from? No one is talking about australia! You made that one up sphincter, oops I mean schniepel tongue

Will reply to youfool later when I have a break at work

PS: what's wrong with the centre-right government, schniepel? Just cause you don't like them, and you'd rather have a leftist government, you use the word 'doomed' wrt the centre-right. If the centre-left party was the best, wouldn't they have more voters!? You get dedicated party supporters, but also a lot who switch around.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

sorry about the australia mistake.

when i say we are doomed with a center right goverment it for the most part for sure is my personal thinking. I know supporters of other parties may say the same about center left goverment, but it also is their right to do so.

The other thing is, i dont know how much into german politics you are, we had a center right goverment from 1983 until 1998. In that time not much happened (yes german unification happened.. i foreign politics lots of stuff happened.. but not in internal politics). Then, from 1998 until 2005 we had a center left goverment which did lots of reforms that were not very popular. the welfare state had been cut big time. also, due to that times the economy was weak and we had over 10% unemployment. at that time popularity of the goverment was super fucked up. they lost one federal election after another. so the goverment called out for new elections in 2005 and.. surprise surprise lost (funny about that is that all the "experts" said CDU will gain around 45% and SPD around 25%, it ended up in both being around 33%).
so in 2005 we got a CDU let grand coalition which probablly is the worst thing that could happen. now.. due to the reforms made and the economy revovering, unemployment went down to around 7% and everything was looking way better. but our current CDU led goverment again shows great inactivity.

So, from my personal experiance with german politics i come to my personal conclusion that the CDU is allways so inactive that it is dangerous for my country.

Also, i recognize that those switch around voters tend to switch from one of the big partie (CDU, SPD) to one of the smaller parties like greens, liberals or left party.. which all atm are over 10%. Most of those 10%+ LEFT voters would probablly have voted nothing but SPD or in smaller ammounts green. But since SPD is saying they will not do a coaliion with the left party (all other parties say the same btw) there is like no chance for a not CDU led goverment in the next election.
So I think that a party should pay attention to all of its wings.

13 (edited by Econ 07-May-2009 19:02:50)

Re: Comparison between NZ and US political parties.

Thanks for that, you pretty much clarified most of the things that I was unsure of, after your previous post.

When NZs centre-right party National (have a look at youfool's diagram above) had a weak leader and wasn't doing well, the party performed very very poorly - people like me instead voted for parties like NZF and Act in order to get a wider range of views and voices in parliament.

But now they have a good leader and drawn more votes from those who were voting for other parties on the right... so perhaps only a few have come over from the left.

Believe Germany uses MMP? I can't remember - but I think 1 or 2 european countries also use it. NZ has had it for about.. 15 or so years I guess but I think we are getting sick of it. When the two main parties get a similar number of votes it ends up being the smaller party who decides who to team up with. But at least it has worked well in this election, with no official coalition, but parties working together on the policy areas that they agree upon.


Well You_Fool.... you certainly put a lot more effort and time into your diagram. I agree with it pretty much - I just didn't feel up to making it quite so detailed so kept mine to one line and didn't include people not in parliament (NZF) or Progressives. Progressives is crazy - if every politician who had a secure hold on their electoral seat decided to leave their party and create their own one; we would have a huge number of overhang seats added to parliament.

Your National / Labour overlap is a bit larger than what I would have given it. And I didn't know much about UF's policies so they could very much be closer to the centre than I realised. As for the american one, I would put the democrats to the left more. Interesting to see that you have them centred in the centre-right. Although they may come into this area a little, they still appear to be more to the left .... well at least based on recent developments. I don't know anything about US Greens etc so I didn't comment on any others.

Too bad flint, balsz, and some other of our interesting (read: firmly/far right) contributers haven't added anything sad

I just noticed that you have told me that you like Labour. Sometimes I like what they say, but sometimes they just get too touchy-feely feel good and look after everyone. I've recently voted for National, Act and New Zealand First. Wish I could talk more, but work meeting

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"