Re: Challenge: Stimulus
and iluvatar... don't be silly, be more inventive with your flaming... come on step the game up a bit eh?
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"
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Imperial Forum → Politics → Challenge: Stimulus
and iluvatar... don't be silly, be more inventive with your flaming... come on step the game up a bit eh?
this isnt flaming, its argument based conversation!!1!1!111!!!!!11one!!11
90% done, just finishing touches. Long day today at work.
First we must know what revenue we pull in
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html
Individual income tax 1,366,241,000,000
Corporation income tax 395,536,000,000
Employment taxes 849,733,000,000
Excise taxes 53,050,000,000
Gift tax 2,420,000,000
Estate tax 24,558,000,000
Total sum 2,691,538,000,000
That would be 2.69 trillion dollars.
There is rounding there, and it's done by the government prior to my minor rounding as well. This is for 2007, just before the economic collapse.
Then we need to see what taxes the States and local governments pulled in.
http://www.census.gov/govs/estimate/0600ussl_1.html
This comes out to 2,736,541,861,000 dollars, or 2.736 trillion dollars.
Now for a lesson in what GDP means.
http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/gdp.htm
GDP (purchasing power parity):
$14.58 trillion (2008 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
$14.33 trillion (2008 est.)
This means in essence we provided about 14.3 to 14.5 trillion dollars in goods and services.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
IMF differs a bit
http://imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=2006&ey=2013&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&pr1.x=85&pr1.y=11&c=111&s=NGDP_R%2CNGDPD%2CPPPGDP%2CPPPPC%2CPPPSH&grp=0&a=
This is by far not a means to actually calculate the actual incomes of persons of course, nor is this a good indicator of business incomes. There is the matter of Gross versus net for each standard. However this is one of three internationally accepted standards.
Exports:
$1.377 trillion f.o.b. (2008 est.)
Imports:
$2.19 trillion f.o.b. (2008 est.)
This from https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
Now this means add .813 trillion dollars to what we spend and cannot get back at this juncture (assuming we do not go to survivalist level imports only, such as gas, food, and essentials)
Ok so at this juncture we have:
2.69 trillion in old federal taxes
2.736 trillion in old state taxes
.813 trillion in trade inbalances
This is 6.239 in cash used out of an income (sorta) of lets say 14.3 trillion (using from CIA factbook and using a center figure of the two, roughly).
Now Obama has so far done these spending features:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june09/stimulusreport_02-17.html
$787 billion
A 3.5 trillion dollar general budget (2010)
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june09/newbudget_02-26.html
A trillion dollar bank proposal
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/03/obama_confident.html
410 billion dollar remainder of 09 budget bill
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2009/03/17/98789.htm
Obama also got 350 billion of the TARP money
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXTl_q8nIqk8&refer=home
Obama did remove some costs however... or has shown he will... or he can?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/remarks-of-president-barack-obama-address-to-joint-session-of-congress/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9ogNITTSY
This is where he says he found 2 trillion dollars in the Federal Government that he can cut for savings over a decade, so thats 200 billion he has saved in theory this year? You can guess on that one.
So this is roughly 6.3 trillion proposed in less than 3 months for the mostly this year and next year. At 2.69 previously, and now 3.15 trillon (roughly) this represents a 17% increase in the budget.
We do not know the extent it will cost to 'warranty' GM and Chrysler so these figures are not included.
The cash included for 'universal health care' is considered merely a down payment and will necessitate further funds, of unproposed values to make workable.
Nancy Pelosi has already indicated, but not yet put to bill that she wants another stimulus package so this figure is not included yet.
As of this time we have not significantly increased, in some views, the total amount being spent, 17% being seemingly low to some, but to others this is indicative, due to only taking 3 months so far, of a non-stop spending policy.
There is some proof that Obama does wish to spend much more:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101066132
Obama feels the government should spend it's way out of a recession/depression, using his own words mostly.
This worries me with this information:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-03-18-fed-interest-rates_N.htm
We printed 1.2 trillion or so dollars, then used some of it to buy up debts.
That pushes this year to a huge number, go ahead and calculate it for yourself.
The problem is that this government is spending and spending, and then to make things balance it prints money, then it buys some of its debt.
If balanced over two years this move pushes us to near 25% of our GDP. This is up from about 18% previously.
Then we have to worry about what additional spending is planned.
This is my argument.
read it tomorrow sometime when i have time....
Upon readin it you don't seem to have made an argument... In a ression the government is spending more of its income than before, like a good government in my books... times are bad look to the government to start spending some of those ill-gotten gains... times are good, time to not spend... let teh peoples do that for you... True printing money to spend will run into problems if kept up over a long term, but in a short term it could be an adequate stop-gap measure.
That said because you have been resonably 'conservative' upon your so called argument so far i have not found an obvious error, though i haven't gone to the trouble of adding up numbers and such like...
Maybe your lack of response, and thus your lack of argument, shows that you are unable to argue a point of view without resorting to lies?
Maybe I should claim my $$ by your lack of ability to argue...
No there is no lies, the argument is the government is spending money rather fast. You found no error in the evidence, so therefore I won. This is closed as far as I am concerned.
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