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Re: Was it worth it?

Yea Brits have been helping all along, on the front lines.  Dutch too.  Germans, one of those who lied about the $$ and their troops won't fight.

People who say Bush ignored Afghanistan forget--or just lie-- that Bush got NATO promises at  Berlin Conferences in 2003 and 2005 for more aid to Afghanistan while we looked to Iraq.

"/me pictures a bunch grown girly men running around the streets with their arms thrust as high as possible into the air.
"not me, Not me, I hate America !!!"

shucks that is an AP released photo every other month.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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27 Reply by Schniepel (edited by Schniepel 30-Mar-2009 14:42:19)

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Re: Was it worth it?

"Germans, one of those who lied about the $$ and their troops won't fight."

right. becvause we are not there to fight. we are not there for enduring freedom.. we are there for ISAF. which is for the recosntruction and securing peace in afghanistan.. not for driving the taliban out of the country.
We do what we are supposed to do according to our ISAF mandate.

Also.. we sent more troops last year.. will send more agian this year...
we are 3rd biggest supplier of troops.
And that all while we have an army which was not doing anything for 60 years.

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Re: Was it worth it?

How you gonna have peace in afghanistan when you won't shove out guys who blow up trucks?

My recollection of German history is somewhat vague, but I believe true unification began with the Zollerverein in 1830 which said Saxons had to stop blowing up trucks in Prussia.  This led to a functional, NATIONAL economy.

seems an essential first step.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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  • DPS
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Re: Was it worth it?

"How you gonna have peace in afghanistan when you won't shove out guys who blow up trucks?"

Build up the states infrastructure, train security forces, and let THEM push the people out.  There's an old saying, "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life."  Getting rid of the problems people face for them doesn't help.  You can help them, you can offer them money, technology, etc, but don't do it for them.

Now some people may be inclined to bring up the World Wars.  Keep in mind that in both World Wars the US was HELPING the Brits, French, etc.  When the US entered the war the Euros still fought they didn't just say, "Ok the Americans are here we don't have to fight anymore."  Not to devalue the American contribution in those Wars but they didn't do it alone.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

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Re: Was it worth it?

Totally agree with DPS

And if you now come blame me for germany not sending enough people for training police and army. i agree also.
Whole NATO is doing far not enough.. we have like what.. 300 "teachers" there.. thats really a joke.

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Re: Was it worth it?

> You_Fool wrote:

> well no, and neither are any of teh people posting here... in fact i don't see one intelligent word in the whole thread...


then why you singling them out?

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32 Reply by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 30-Mar-2009 19:29:40)

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Re: Was it worth it?

@ Schneip...

Come now.   The Germans are doing NOTHING......They dont take up a position on the line, they stay in their Kocerns, .... Probably  in  hole w/a rack of beir and wurst und Brot...ya ?


As a Turnervien and a of Proud German ancestry, I SICKENED by how Frenchified the Fatherland has become..... SICKENED.
Its time for the UNIFIED German State to take its proper place in NATO, and pay back all that has been given to it........by the US, UK and Canada.

Time to step up and stop acting like sissymen.

Act like Germans for Christs sake, Not Frenchmen.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: Was it worth it?

BW,

Lol, the Germans lost all their fight willing men in WW1, WW2, and during the Soviet occupation.

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Re: Was it worth it?

No they havent...... Look how hard they fight for the World Cup w/underdog teams, most of the time.

They have it in them.   Its there.


Pussies.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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35 Reply by BiefstukFriet (edited by BiefstukFriet 30-Mar-2009 20:52:21)

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Re: Was it worth it?

"right. becvause we are not there to fight. we are not there for enduring freedom.. we are there for ISAF. which is for the recosntruction and securing peace in afghanistan.. not for driving the taliban out of the country."

Dutch are there as pat of ISAF as well and we fight, so do the Danes.

Je maintiendrai

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  • Golk
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Re: Was it worth it?

lol funny thread.

This ends up however with the same main issues on both sides: the US stubbornly refusing to question themselves over anything they did, because it was always right at the time, and the euros unable to admit that they just won't be able, ever again, to enter a war that is not fully justified by their very last citizen (which clearly puts the US as the only powerful democracy still able to act and not react).

I find both issues really interesting but somehow, I don't think we will ever debate them in a clever way without some wacko flaming around big_smile

By the way, it seems everybody has forgotten Desert Storm, which was justified to everybody (meaning, it was to late, it was reaction so Europe followed) where we had everybody on the same boat - even Syria fighting alongside the US for chrissake!

The true sadness is the fact that apart from the impossible wars that some like to picture for the future, nobody talks about the only places where everybody should have been: Rwanda, Darfur, etc. Apart from Somalia, nothing. Conflicts without interests don't get anyone's attention, even if they are the ones that matter for all our supposed "values".

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Re: Was it worth it?

Africa is Europes Mess......always has been, always will be.


As soon as Clinton steps into Africa......he leaves the Ranger and SpecOps hanging like a Non-steroid pumped Clemons fast ball.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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Re: Was it worth it?

Um in Rwanda stability was achieved when the Tutsi Army smashed the Hutus...Nobody was talking about a war against hte Hutus just "peacekeeping'

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: Was it worth it?

Iraq as a fully functioning, oil producer will undermine the regimes of other theocrat-run OPEC states like Iran and Saudi Arabia. A pipeline through Afghanistan connecting the ex-Soviet energy producing states to ports in Pakistan will do the same and circumvent Putin in Russia.

So yes they were worthwhile objectives and will serve the long-term interests of the War in Terror in removing the basis for religious terrorism.

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  • Golk
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Re: Was it worth it?

@BW
The point is europe won't ever act without the US driving the effort. Yugoslavia was closer and we still stood there watching.

Also, from that point of vue, everything is Europe's mess (except some parts of Asia perhaps), this includes every place the US had to intervene ever starting with the world wars. The interesting catch here is that Europe is unable to lead, but unwilling to follow the leader if the cause is not judged a "good" one.

This simplification is imho at the core of the anti-us/anti-old europe feelings here and everywhere. Europe would like to see the US act with common values, in order to accept US leadership, but a "US with Europe attitude" is not the US anymore, they wouldn't be able to act anymore.

Rationalization is a sickness, and this is also why the US don't ever want to question their own moves.

@Yell
I meant any kind of military operations. The "war"/genocide was happening there, it should have been "peacekeeping" (with real bullets).

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Re: Was it worth it?

No, it should have been a war against the Hutu regime that was sponsoring the genocide.  avoiding war didn't help.  declaring some areas "safe havens" doesn't help, because when the war comes there in force you get a Sbrenica.  Going after one side on behalf of another is what works.

We have already failed this lesson in Afghanistan, where clinton today calls for us to "engage" the "non-violent" Taliban.  This dooms the Afghan state to the same chaos as Gaza.  So long as the Taliban maintains--within its own organization!--a bureaucratic distinction for diplomats to latch on to, between its carbombing and mutilation wing, and its "moderate" wing, it will sap and divide opposition to a return of the Taliban state--which we know will not give a damn what Clinton thinks of its atrocities.  Thank God she wasn't around in 1944.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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42 Reply by BiefstukFriet (edited by BiefstukFriet 31-Mar-2009 21:03:15)

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Re: Was it worth it?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0e8f798c71 - ANA, US SF contact + Euro SF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXlxlzlgkmA&feature=related  - ANA and Euro's (skip the first part if you want.)


Euro's fight in Afghanistan. Don't do our soldiers discredit because the Germans are pussies. Basicly, in Europe, if armed forces don't have the "Royal" prefix, well...

Je maintiendrai

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Re: Was it worth it?

you're supposed to agree with me sad

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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