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Imperial Forum → Politics → Resource-based economy
everything we know is based off of past experience. you pointing out that past experiences dont always hold true, does not dispute what i said. im not asking you to defend the statement that "Just because something has been happening such and such way in the past does not mean it is going to continue that way indefinitely." but im asking you to state a better argument then to infer that because your past statement is true, experience is useless.
Sounds like a robot serviced society where robots free people from doing boring autonomus jobs. This may eliminate the need for money as money is the incentive to do a boring job and if all the work is done by robots then no one needs to do them.
Once the automatic production facilities are advanced enough to be left to their own devices then they can just continualy churn out large quantities of food, televisions, cars, whatever you want. Mabey enough for everyone to have everything they need or even want.
Some things that the robots perhaps couldnt do would be to create software or improve technology through science or design things. Technology may improve at a slower rate, however there have been pleanty of scientists in the past who have done research for reasons other than money and there are pleanty of software develepors who don' t create software for money and pleanty of engineers who have made it their passion to create things.
If people had whatever they needed or wanted without doing boring jobs they would probably spend their time:
Socialising
Doing Leisure activities such as sports.
Playing games.
Creating or designing things or doing research (if you are like einstien)
Such a society may be one possibility but has many requirements.
> xeno syndicated wrote:
> Your resource curse was responded to: dependency does not mean complete dependency. There is no reason for any nation's survival to be dependent on another.
The notion that nations would necessarily go to war without trade is erroneous.
You can't group a post and make one answer to it, because I had multiple smaller arguments within that, which you so conveniently ignored.
Not to mention that, twice, you decided to ignore my post until I cattle-prodded you to give an answer. If I hadn't demanded an answer, none would have been given, and the whole argument would have been ignored in the first place.
Stop encouraging the angry 12 year old.
There was no need to respond to your sub-arguments, as I addressed the more fundamental one first.
If you consider an independent argument that would, on its own, render your society meaningless (oh, and the two posts that you ignored until I cattle-prodded you to answer... oh, and this argument that I had to cattle-prod you to answer two arguments! That makes 3!), then maybe these other people think there's no need to address your arguments, as they've already addressed the fundamental issue?
In fact we have addressed the fundamental issues which Xeno hasn't justified his position other than sayiong "but i'm right." Occassionally he does back it up with "because i said so" or occassionally "look this guy is some sore of scientist and he is sort of doing what i am talking about."
However back to if we need money or not, I think Xeno you might get close to your utopia with a drive towards robotics and electronic money over physical paper money. In reality a full eelectronic monetary system would be practically the same as your resource based system where people had electronic gagets to keep track of who they owed resources too... in this case the counter system is dollers and cents, which can be directly related to your personal work hours, through a contract you can negotiate with someone else who has other resources you need.
So person B has something person A wants, however person B doesn't really want anything person A has, but does want things that person C has, who in turn wants things from person A. So person A negotiates a deal wherein he works for Person C, who gives something to Person B who gives something to Person A. All of which is tracked by an electronic system where in the negotiated value of Person A's time and Person B & C's goods are compared and moved around so that everyone is happy they have not be scammed out of any goods or services. I.E. Person A knows he has done just enough work to get his item, Person B knows that he hasn't undersold his item and person C knows he hasn't paid to much for the labour of A or undersold his item.
"So person B has something person A wants, however person B doesn't really want anything person A has, but does want things that person C has, who in turn wants things from person A. So person A negotiates a deal wherein he works for Person C, who gives something to Person B who gives something to Person A. All of which is tracked by an electronic system where in the negotiated value of Person A's time and Person B & C's goods are compared and moved around so that everyone is happy they have not be scammed out of any goods or services. I.E. Person A knows he has done just enough work to get his item, Person B knows that he hasn't undersold his item and person C knows he hasn't paid to much for the labour of A or undersold his item."
Exactly, You_Fool, and, hence the redundancy of money. You've got it!
All that is needed for it to work is a client on your mobile phone and (unless the powers that be take draconian measures to prevent it) it will be written and distributed for free very, very soon.
Xeno: this "client" is already available and completly free on the internet!! Zomg!!! Its called "internet banking." You can also get this little plastic card, called an "EFTPOS card" in which you can use to purchase things that will tell your main deposit of resources you have acquired to move a certain value of them from your depository to another persons, who will then give you some other resources you have just negotiated to "buy."
I know that all sounds a littlke technical, but trust me it could work, all you need to do is beleive...
A client that keeps track of your incoming and outgoing shipments of resources exchanges is NOT available for the common person.
There is no resource bank with online exchange services.
But there will be soon. Don't worry.
Yeah there is. I have a checking account. Sometime between age 16 and, in your case, 30-40 you should open one. They keep track of all of my incoming and outgoing shipments of resources. Hell I even link mine to another account not in my name to make fraud and cheating taxes more convenient.
Xeno: I can have my online exchange system "txted" to my cell phone if I wish.... obviously you need to learn about new technological advances, even more than robotics.. your utopia is closer than you think...
You_Genius.
You better beleive it... quick get in on the band wagon of the Foolish Cult, join up now... send $9,999,999,999,999.99
You guys just don't seem to get it, do you?
Until the monetary system fades away, humanity will continue to be controlled by centralized political systems.
This is not good.
Looks like you're [ ]ed.
Xeno: you don't understand, the monetary system is the best option. Even your resource based economy is really a monetary system in disguise, you just don't realise it (or more it is an electronical version of early monetary systems.)
I know you are a little slow, but do try to read up on the concept...
"Even your resource based economy is really a monetary system in disguise"
LOL. No, it is not.
It is a resource based system.
You go to McDonalds to buy a happy meal. You walk up to the till. You have your mobile phone / electronic device on you. While in line, you look up what McDonald's is willing to exchange for such amount of potato credits - BASED ON AN ACTUAL AMOUNT OF POTATOES. You also find out what McDonald's is willing to pay for beef credits, hydro-electricity credits, coal-energy credits, onion credits, etc.
You see that you can get a happy meal for 1.5976 potato credits, 1.685 hydro-electricity credits, 1.7 beef credits, and 2 coal-energy credits, and 2.1 onion credits. Of course, using potato credits would be the best deal. But, it just so happens that you don't have any. You have a lot of onion credits, though, as you grow onions in your garden. You're quite surprised McDonald's is willing to sell happy meals for such a good rate in potato credits. You think maybe they're short on potatoes or something. Anyway, while in line, you push a few buttons on your keypad and do a little online banking: you exchange your onion credits for potato credits at a good rate: 1:1.
By the time you get to the till, the price is 1.6 potato credits for a happy meal. You pay with a couple keystrokes on your mobile, and take your happy meal.
how is that different to an electronic monetary system?
Say you have an exchange rate for each resource into a hypothetical resource, lets call it a lkabour credit. Everything is able to be converted to a labour credit as it is proportional to the amout of time you need to labour to get each resource. Now McDonalds offers there goods at a rate based on the labour required to make said good, which may include more than the actual time used to make the burger in the shop. Ie also includes the time used to produce the raw materials for the good.
You then use your cell phone to "txt" your central resource storage deposity and check your labour credit balance. You then use a small plastic card to transfer some of your labour credits to mcdonalds in exchange for their good.
>>Of course, using potato credits would be the best deal. <<
What? Of course? How stupid of a generalization is that? You're PRESUMING that all credits require the same amount of investment (including time, LABOR) to produce. Anyone older than 10 can figure out that that's just silly.
>>You have a lot of onion credits, though, as you grow onions in your garden. <<
Where did you break down the increased cost of all agricultural goods distributors being open to unregulated growing by random people? Someone has to pick up or take your onions, package them, evaluate them, and distribute them. Sure you get your "onion credits," but there's a lot more cost involved in taking all products randomly from accross the globe/area than current producers. And then there's that lack of regulation for health/safety purposes. Pardon my sarcasm. I know that you have not, in fact, addressed either of these points. Again, those are the increased cost and difficulty of regulation (with any additional regulation, by the nature of this extremely decentralized production in which every single private citizen is a contributor on their own, to catch up costing EVEN MORE).
>>You think maybe they're short on potatoes or something.<<
Maybe you'd think that if you were a retard? They don't want microchips or raisins either. They'd just be trading for other things. Like money. It sounds like your system would SCREW anyone with resources which become overly abundant (thus lowering their value) MUCH more than a monetary system does now. Fact of life: If what you're selling isn't worth much, you're not going to get much for selling it. Find a new product or service and move on. That's life. You can produce 10 million of something nobody wants--how does that make you entitled to anything because you produced junk?
>>Anyway, while in line, you push a few buttons on your keypad and do a little online banking: you exchange your onion credits for potato credits at a good rate: 1:1.<<
So, after this hastle of having to exchange credits while in line to get lunch (just what I want to do during lunch, more economic transactions!), what you end up with is a very fluid economy of assets in which the value of things changes in relation to the general cost of goods in an economy? THAT SOUNDS A LOT LIKE A MONETARY SYSTEM, YOU DUMB [saving some poor mod some work]. Pardon my French. But read it again until you take it in. And again, if necessary. And then again. And again... Forget it. You're just not equipped for basic economics yet. I wish you well.
In case you haven't been entirely "owned," in terms of pre-teen arguments, yet:
"You see that you can get a happy meal for 1.5976 potato credits"
"You see that you can get a happy meal for... 2.1 onion credits"
-----coupled with:------
"you exchange your onion credits for potato credits at a good rate: 1:1."
This has to be the most disgusting display of ignorance of the most basic economics EVER by anyone who's started a thread they're still posting in 19 pages later. This is simply the dumbest and most idiotic lack of applied consciousness I've ever seen.
Translation for Xeno: You are an idioit, a big stinking moronic idiot with mush for brains...
why are you growing your own onions when there are self-sufficient farms out there that makes 'free' onions for you?
@ Simon
"why are you growing your own onions when there are self-sufficient farms out there that makes 'free' onions for you?"
Well, I'm assuming the chicken might come before the egg, but it could be that the egg comes before the chicken. In either case, it's alright to imagine each scenario.
Simon: translation he is fucking stupid and doesnm't know what he is talking about
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