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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

The title of the thread includes "when the government fails to enforce the law." You require more clarification? tongue

How is it hypocritical to justify vigilantism based on a breach of the social contract? Essentially vigilantism is just protecting one's rights under the social contract against those who would infringe upon them. (each's freedom extends so far as it does not infringe upon another's--when a person wants to take your stuff, they have no regard for the contract and must be stopped, with violent means if necessary)

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

ok but vigilantes never form over a parking ticket. Vigilantes form over major crimes. We should be debating the real world application of vigilantes rather than your imaginary parking ticket vigilantes.

So in this scenario, is major crime vigilantism justified when the government has failed to enforce the law.

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

Setting people up against a mob mentality is easy. Just look at the 'mafia' games in the general forum.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

I doubt you'll find any debate here. To claim that, without government power upholding laws, people are wrong to protect themselves from clear threats would be to say it is imperative that one never resist crimes against themselves, their family, others, nor their property. To claim that it is inherently wrong is the "lay over and die" position; everything else is morally objectionable.

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30 Reply by Theodora (edited by Theodora 18-Feb-2009 23:45:02)

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

@Kemp and Rooster


There are many reasons a government may fail to enforce the law. For instance in the parking ticket example, the government decides that enforcing the law in all instances is inefficient. It makes more sense for the government enforce the law sporadically. It's an effective deterrent, and doesn't require the hiring of thousands of bylaw officers to patrol the streets. It serve the government's purpose.

In murder cases the government almost always chooses to enforce the law.

So why is the government failing to enforce the law? What do you mean by failure? Is the government unable to enforce the law. Are they able to enforce the law, but are choosing not to enforce the law in all instances? Do they have the power to only sporadically enforce the law? Are they ignoring crime in specific areas (e.g. ghettos)? Has the government failed to enforce the law because the perpetrator has gotten off on a technicality or a lack of evidence? Did the perp make a plea bargain to testify against a bigger fish in exchange for immunity? Is the crime so minor, that the government is choosing not to pursue it? (As an example of the last one, some kids decided to toss some eggs at my dad's house. Now that's against the law. The police didn't care much though. They didn't go through hell and high water to find the bugger who did it.)


What constitutes a failure by the government to enforce the law?

Without being clear on that, it's hard to create an argument, because depending on what was intended by the idea of the "government failing to enforce the law", the applicable arguments change.

Although maybe that's too complex a thought for the level of debate. If it's only high school or whatever, you can just pick one and run with it (unless the side arguing for vigilantism is required to define the terms).




"ok but vigilantes never form over a parking ticket. Vigilantes form over major crimes. "

Vigilantism can occur over slight legal infractions (e.g. someone running a stop sign or a red light, tailgating...yay for road rage!). tongue Or...Billy egged my car. I'm going to shoot him. Then you have fathers who rape the men who raped their daughters. Vigilantism relates to a broad spectrum of activity, from minor incidents to major incidents. This is because the motivation for vigilantism is typically vengeance. And people will take revenge over small legal slights as well as large ones.





Here are the stories for the last two I mentioned. They both occurred in 2008 I believe...quite tragic really.



Man Rapes Stepson for Raping Daughter
     
A 32-year-old Fort Worth, Texas, man called police and had his 18-year-old stepson arrested for aggravated sexual assault against the man's 8-year-old daughter. The 8-year-old had been anally raped.

Against the man's warning, the man's wife posted bail for the stepson. However, when the stepson called for a ride home, the man took the call. But, after the man picked up the stepson, he didn't drive straight home.

Instead, he took him to an abandoned house, assaulted him with a baseball bat, and anally raped him with a wrench. The man turned himself in for aggravated sexual assault. The man does have a criminal history which includes other assault charges.




Boy, 16, killed after egging cars
Sunday,  August 31, 2008 3:40 AM
By Suzanne Hoholik
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
ADAM ALEXANDERDispatch

Georden Burton is comforted by Westland guidance counselor Christi Shore at the football game last night.

Westland High School junior Garrett P. Burton, 16, was shot and killed near Hilliard-Rome Road.
First, a moment of silence. Then the Westland High School band played the school's alma mater in memory of Garrett P. Burton at last night's football game.

The 16-year-old junior was shot and killed early yesterday, apparently in retaliation for throwing eggs at vehicles driving on Hilliard-Rome Road. Columbus police said Garrett died at the scene just before 3 a.m.

Garrett and at least one other boy were in the backyard of a house at 5402 Ripplemead Court when someone shot him in the head.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/08/31/TEENKILLED.ART_ART_08-31-08_A1_RPB6HC5.html?sid=101



Road rage cases are fairly well documented. You can find some yourself that conform to vigilantism. tongue

The point is that claiming people only take the law into their own hands when serious breaches occur...is wrong.

To serve is to survive

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

Anally raped with a wrench for anally raping an 8 year old... not harsh enough.

Shooting someone for eggs is just silly. Clearly they should have been egged or beat up a little.

We could discuss what crimes warrant what punishments (and when power breaks down and there is no police, it becomes a very pertinent question), but I doubt we'd come up with any sort of spectrum of crime/punishment severity ratio. Different people see different crimes very differently.

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32 Reply by Theodora (edited by Theodora 19-Feb-2009 03:31:28)

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

Indeed...I mentioned that as one of the issues with vigilantism in my first post smile

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

Some examples of vigilantism that I have done:

1) I was riding a bus in the 90's in a security uniform when I saw a man kick at a teen age girl. I had turned cause the conversation was getting heated back there. No way was this girl using force against the man. I yelled and said "YOU! OFF THE BUS". The man questioned my authority and I said "You just tried violence against her, regardless of what your argument was about, you are wrong to do violence, now get off or I will get you off the bus." He complained about his destination was the end of the bus route (This was a particularly long route, roughly 25 miles to the end was left and it was the last bus of the night, the next bus was 6 hours from starting and it was cold and wet out). I said I do not care, get off. He got off. I had no legal authority to throw him off, no standing in the bus company, was just a vigilante in a security uniform at that moment.

2) I made some pot smokers on a bus throw their pot out the window "or get off the bus". I was not in uniform there, and had no right to tell them to do so, again, and therefore was a vigilante.

3) In 7th grade I came up to the school bully, stood in front of him while he was talking to his friends, and upper cut him to the jaw as quickly and as hard as I could. He never bothered me after that.


In example #1 I could have in theory gotten the police out there, with video of a crime I could have tried to get him arrested, but the police would have done in effect exactly what I did, kick the man off the bus and they would have done nothing more than tell him not to do it again or else (and no or else would ever really stick). I felt justified by what I did, I feel I would 100% do it again if put in the same circumstances,  and I was without any legal standing to do so. (It's a misdemeanor, law says either get police or make a citizens arrest.)

In example #2 a joined half smoked would have resulted in a police officer stepping and grinding the joint into the ground and lecturing the kids. It would have taken time from me to make sure they were caught. I felt justified, I would 100% do it again, and I had no legal justification to do so (It's an infraction)

In example #3 the school bully would rough up a little on a lot of people, would torment a few selective kids tremendously (Putting them in lockers or in trash cans for example) just due to his being 6 foot already where some where still less than 5 foot high. He perceived he had power and used it. The authorities, being the teachers and school administration never did anything that would end his actions. I felt justified, I feel I would do it again (if I would only have hit one of his buddies in the crotch as well then ran off perhaps they would have left others besides myself alone as well), and it was against both the law and school rules.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

btw I would egg Theodoras house as well tongue

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

Lol

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Re: Is Vigilantism justified when the government fails to enforce the law?

yes, look at batman, we wouldn't need him unless the law had failed.

end of argument.

Kadaj

Death is not to be mourned
It's meant to be savored

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