Moral arguments aren't typically persuasive against people with differing values or interests. They rely on a value system, and to refute a value system all you have to do is respond with a different one, which is what has happened here. Or all you have to do is to further en vague the arguments that are all ready vague, which has also happened here.

Practical arguments work, however. There is always a winner. Your options can be reduced to those that have the most desired results that can be foreseen, or you can identify groups or person with the most power and predict that the outcome will serve their interests or result in a conflict.

And while I think Bief is just trying to give a moral face to a practical argument, I am going to give a practical argument.

(PS: This argument doesn't necessary pertain to me, but it is a practical argument that would be popular imo.).

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Personally, I have reason to be inconvenienced by some groups that were allowed to immigrate for the long-term, especially ones that were allowed to enter without merit. These groups tend to live in poverty and leech off of the state, are more likely to be prone to criminal activity because of their poverty, and at other times they add competition for jobs. Furthermore, they concern me as a growing center of power. With such indiscriminate immigration, this impoverished group can gain power in our democratic system at my expense.

I understand the need for immigration or work visas in our country, but restrictions need to be instituted. In the case of immigration, I only want persons with merit and good behavior to take permanent residence in our country. In the case of persons of working class or impoverished origin here on a work visa, I want all such persons closely monitored and filed. We moreover only allow such persons to live and work in our country when our economy is performing well and there is a scarcity of labor. Should they ever misbehave, they will be immediately deported. Moreover, I want priority given to a citizen applying for a particular job over one working on a work visa, assuming the citizen is equally or similarly qualified for the job. In the event of a recession or depression where there becomes a scarcity of jobs, we will deport all appropriate persons working on a work-visa and suspend the program. In the case of an applying immigrant who is well-off, well educated and well-mannered, we may consider giving them citizenship and allow them to participate in our democratic government. Furthermore, persons in our country with a working visa who are classified as working class will not be considered for citizenship, under any circumstances.

Keep in mind this is all about self and group interest. No matter what moral arguments you shove down such a person's throat, they will say "it's not in my interest, and I will consider my best interest."

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Bief, I suggest you take this line of reasoning. It's more clear and it allows actual progress to be made in the argument. At best your opponents can try to do is try to reach a compromise, or at worst agree to disagree or flip out on morality lol.

> [RPA] Arocalex wrote:

> Justinian, That won't work in any kind of practical sense. Because why would you then go work there when there are plenty of different countries.>

1. Limited opportunities in other countries
2. Third world population > Western population
3. Working in a Western country pays big dividends if you are a citizen of a third world country.

"I understand the need for immigration or work visas in our country, but restrictions need to be instituted. In the case of immigration, I only want persons with merit and good behavior to take permanent residence in our country. In the case of persons of working class or impoverished origin here on a work visa, I want all such persons closely monitored and filed. We moreover only allow such persons to live and work in our country when our economy is performing well and there is a scarcity of labor. Should they ever misbehave, they will be immediately deported. Moreover, I want priority given to a citizen applying for a particular job over one working on a work visa, assuming the citizen is equally or similarly qualified for the job. In the event of a recession or depression where there becomes a scarcity of jobs, we will deport all appropriate persons working on a work-visa and suspend the program. In the case of an applying immigrant who is well-off, well educated and well-mannered, we may consider giving them citizenship and allow them to participate in our democratic government. Furthermore, persons in our country with a working visa who are classified as working class will not be considered for citizenship, under any circumstances."

@justinian, great idea, lets deport all the immigrants here. Lets make it hard for them to get a job so citizen can get the job first. Do you realize the catastrophe that would happen to our "great western" economy? One example I can give you is Indians coming here to work in the IT field. They are usually much more hard working than your average white guy and sometimes take less money than the white guy. Without this workforce, some of your favorite websites would not be maintained, some of your favorite computer games not even exist, and some of your favorite grocery stores will go out of business because they can't process information efficiently. You broad generalization is at best misguided, at worst, idiotic. And let us keep in mind i am not even arguing the moral aspects of this debate. Perhaps I need to bring proof that our economy actually needs more workers. This recession is a temporary thing but we need a larger workforce. How do you think we will compete with china when they have a 800 billion advantage on us?

Please take your idiotic anti-immigration bullshit elsewhere. Immigrants make this country and no matter what color they are, they will continue to make this country in the future. To simply reduce the status of one person over another just because they are not a citizen is ludicrous. Perhaps I don't know the "bad" immigrants you are talking about but generally they value education and hard work more than the average citizen. But just because there are bad immigrants can't you look at them as bad people not bad immigrants? or are you always trying to link up certain coincidental groups a person belongs to?

well it is nonsensical to give someone a work visa when there isnt already a shortage of that particular type of worker. No country on earth gives people work visas for no reason... They may give people an asylum which is purely a moral decision not a cost-benefit decision. The goal is that by giving people asylums, you increase your image of benevolence around the world and it can be used to spread propoganda at home. And the people who were given asylums will eventually become part of the country through our public education system.

Why do all the people who oppose this guy's views call them racist?  His views against Islam are nothing to do with the colour of a person's skin.  Racism is defined as the belief that you are superior to someone or discriminate against someone due to their skin colour.  Islam, as far as I'm aware, is not a skin colour, or ethnic background (I know, same thing), it's a form of culture. 

I support the idea of this man being let in to Britain to show his film on the condition that a few of his supporters and a few moderate Muslim clerics were invited to watch and discuss the contents.  If it was another "Death to the West and impose Sharia law" cleric like Abu Hamza instead of this Dutch guy, I doubt we'd be seeing as much of a furore and he'd have been let in.

I think I'll watch his film on youtube, anybody know what it's called?

MOST of the "immigrants" here do not want to reject their homeland.  They are out to milk what they can and send it back home.

> Red_Rooster wrote:

> Chris, no one is going to reject their homeland unless they were being persecuted there. What WILL happen though is that the sons/daughters of these immigrants will assimilate into our culture and probably add a few things to our culture. This is what has happened and will continue to happen. You guys are just too nearsighted to see anything past the here and now.

It are the children and grandchildren, the "next" generation that are causing the problems, not so much the first generation immigrants. Besides, Morrocan and Turkish culture contains nothing that we need OR want, except perhaps Kebab.

And please tell me how the liberals shelter them? Are they preventing the kids from going to the public school? Preventing them to get a job at a normal office?