Topic: What is Inflation?

After seeing some severe ignorance about Inflation in some threads, I have decided to post about this topic, since after all we shall see 50%-500% inflation over the next 5 years imho.

Inflation is the devaluation of money versus product. In lay mans terms it means you need more money for the item you wish to purchase than a previous time, and not due to some one trying to make profit.

Now some people seem to be under the impression that some inflation is not bad. I shall rectify this entire sentiment in any rational beings who read this post.



Inflation typically is a very low number per year in the United States, notable exceptions being the Great Depression and the Carter Years. Now we can add the Obama Years to this list.

This low number while seeming to be harmless is in fact a dangerous situation.

But first I think I need to list sources of inflation, yes there is more than one source to create inflation.

The first source is the total money available at a given time. If this source increases then a quick and dry analysis is going to show more money = less value. Of course you do have to deal with the location of the cash, therefore when I quote inflation to people I am generally using cash within this nation as a reference, removing cash from outside as a factor for the moment.

Now not always does this cash have an immediate effect, it must, in a sense, trickle from who has gained the cash to society in general. If this person slowly introduces it then the effects take longer to be noticed, if he splurges he may trigger inflation immediately.

The second source of inflation is by far more insidious and dangerous. This is through unbalanced payroll raises. If Group A gets raises, but no cuts in wages somewhere else occur, then the net result is an inflationary pull. This is best exampled with New York City and the Bay Area of California.

The third source of inflation is unique, it is fad buying. In this situation supply is outstripped by demand and the price of the item goes up, even though it is a temporary issue. However long term harm can occur with the development of fad buying on a product.

The last source of inflation is run-away spending in some area's versus saving cash in other area's. This can create regional stressors that ultimately will cause inflation.


Now you are probably asking, why is inflation bad according to Einstein? Well here it is. Inflation tends to strike hard at those people who have less mobility in their pay raises, or pay at all than others. The smaller and more confined, who have not seen raises for a while, aka the working poor, are the most dramatically affected by such inflationary issues.

An example would be myself. Stuck at $10 an hour for a 8 year period (96 to 07 with a few years of no income from standard employment) I watched as the prices on many items rose. These price changes may seem small, to some, but incrementally they all added up to considerable levels. In effect cheese, which had been affordable, went through a fad buying stage, and with normal inflation became to expensive for my general consumption.


The people most effected, ergo, from inflation is the poor. Coupled with a non-adjusting taxation level they are cut both ways, if they get a higher income they lose more to taxes and they also watch as inflation eats away the difference rather quickly.


Run away inflation however is much scarier. Run away inflation to me is any inflation greater than 5%/ The problem becomes that people will want to make purchases to find the expenses are larger than expected. Written on companies this means they raise their costs to the buyers of their products/services. Some get caught short, and do not have the extra 5% needed. Typically this is smaller businesses, but larger business such as Circuit City as also apt examples. This means scaling down, unemploying some people, closing some locations, and raising prices to allow for their higher costs. At first this has only a small effect.

However it keeps cascading, since each move only increases inflationary results in general. Yes cutting interest rates will counter inflation, to a point, but if you do steps other than this key choice, you only create more inflation. Cutting taxes is the only other way to fight inflation, and this must be upon earners, not some welfare aimed at those not earning, or supplemental upon those working but under certain low rates where they receive more than they put in.

We are talking the rich, since they also buy and sell things, and even to each other. Inflation creates a situation where one is "caught with the bag" and is unable to afford their costs. They increase their prices to mitigate this, but then others in turn must increase their costs.

When you are talking about going from 5% to 10% in a rush, then things get deadly serious. This is the point where small businesses are no longer able to keep up with the increased prices on goods and start collapsing, some slower than others, but none-the-less collapsing. This is exceeding the typical 2-4% profit margins easily, and crippling them versus those larger businesses able to easier absorb big costs.

A good example of this is Walmart versus 7-11's. A typical Walmart has multiple loading docks, a central warehouse to hold goods and to make sure shipments get sent as needed. No space is wasted in the larger semi-trucks transporting from the warehouse to individual store, nor is fuel being excessively consumed for the amount of cargo being carried.

However a 7-11 has multiple shippers, no central warehouse, and each shipper comes in a smaller, and less fuel efficient, vehicle. Most vehicles will have multiple stops where they give up a portion of the cargo as well. This is both cost and time inefficient. Therefore this is why normally 7-11 has higher costs to consumers than Walmart. However under inflation this effect is bell curved, in favor of Walmart and against the 7-11.

This example is supposed to show you how small businesses suffer under inflation.

Now lets look at the future of our nation.

Inflation is going to average 1 to 100% a year over the next five years, tending more to about 60% a year. You get paid every two weeks. Assuming your employer some how can keep giving you a raise is bad business. However lets assume he gives you annual raises in line with inflation.

Year number 1 you are making a fictional $12,000 (To keep the math simple). Inflation is 50% over that year. You earn $1,000 a month this year. Inflation is 0.4167% a month. Now for the sake of argument lets say your expenses are $900 a month, leaving you 10% to do as you wish with. 

The first month expenses will increase to a mere $903.75. This does not seem that much. However at the end of the year this is now $945 a month in expenses. Your net 'spare income' has nearly dropped to half of what it was.

For those with margins much lower than 10% spare income, this can be catastrophic.

But you say "rent is stable, only food, gas, electricity and the likes will rise".

True at first, but suddenly at the end of the contract do not be surprised to see the rent adjust to inflation, and your contracts to be much shorter.

AND also expect them to try to make up for the lost difference, they must after all feed their families, they likely had to take out a ruinous loan to offset the difference due to inflation, which across a number of units can add up very fast.

But now the uneducated will say 'they are rich anyhow, with so much property'. Well they might seem rich, but they still have a "margin" they live inside of also. They just have assets worth a certain value, which bring in a specific amount of cash. Subtract from this cash the upkeep of those assets and they really are not income rich as you would think versus their asset values. So perhaps they make 15% spare income versus expenses, and they usually invest most of this in new purchases to help further their efforts to protect their retirement (When they will sell the property to fund their retirement). Now they are faced with higher costs to try to maintain, and higher costs to expand. Maintaining ultimately for most business types means less products, which will sell for higher prices, which increases inflation.



An example? Ok sure.

Lets create a LED light bulb type company, one which offers flashlights, lights for housing, lights for stop lights, and so forth. We are diversified to prevent anyone type of business market shrinking from affecting us.

We now however are faced with suddenly to much of our product, and our suppliers of the parts we purchase to put our lights together, for us to maintain. This is due to the amount of money the government created and stimulus efforts they said would help. Since we are a cornerstone type business to that development we now are the front line of inflation. Our suppliers, overwhelmed raise prices 5%. We now have to raise our costs that much just to get the parts. However then the other issue, we now have to raise costs because to many places are ordering, and we need to expand asap to adjust to the future business. We just went up 5% on our own as well then. Now our costs are 110.25% of the original cost. This effects the government who sadly understand we cannot keep up and why we raised prices, so now they need an additional 10% to the funds they created from no where.


Now the shipping company gets hit with the business, and must expand. It seems there are only so many trucks which can handle the light poles, the gases we use, and otherwise. They raise their prices 5%.


Then the installers who ultimately put the stuff in also need to purchase more drills, more welders, more screw drivers, more trucks, more everything... 5% more there to.


Inflation leads to inflation leads to inflation.


Unions demanding higher wages are actually inflationary. The best way for it to work would be to have fixed numbers of spots per pay bracket, with the brackets never changing in value. Performance would allow upwards movement or result in downward movement, and sometimes the only way to advance would be to allow someone time to retire and compete for their spot.

However fads also create inflation and they are harder to manage.


The things we can more easily control are taxation policies, interest rates, and monetary creation.




Reducing taxes on the rich and businesses helps via leaving them their margins when the inflation is occuring, leaving them to not need to adjust their prices. Simple math, if you are paying 40% in taxes, and make 100%, and your normal profits is 5%, inflation is 5% (of the 100%, not the 95%), taxes get cut by 5%, your still making 5% profits and do not feel the need to change prices.


Interest rates is a unique example. See the problem is in credit. If the credit interest rate is very high it costs more to upkeep it. If this is suddenly cut then the cost is reduced, and you have more free money with which to avoid a cost increase. HOWEVER I WILL NOTE THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE IN THE COMING INFLATIONARY PERIOD DUE TO THE SLASHING OF INTEREST TO 0%-0.25% ALREADY!!!!! So you can count this tool out when considering this.


Printing more money only makes for more spending which increases inflation. Printing less could help, except when will our government ever start spending radically less?




Oh and shoving the debt burden off to the future wont work much longer. This is because trust in the dollar will weaken. People invest still in Japan because the worker there WORKS HARD AS ALL HELL to make sure his company succeeds. Here we have a plague with indifference if our companies fail, and even an attitude of punishing the ones who succeed and pay their CEO's good for succeeding. Investors realize this so your screwed, I am screwed, we are all screwed.


However I have seen one way to protect cash assets in the coming storm, not gold which I think will tank hard when the recession ends, worse than any existing bubble ever was. I am offering this information to Conservatives and people who actually think with their brain instead of their emotions if they message me in #1579 (Empire name: Commander) without cost or anything, just a promise not to blather it about to everyone because it will only work if only a small percentage of society knows of it, those who know already, and those who will learn of it prior to it being to late.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: What is Inflation?

I got half way through it. Who can read farther?

Rehabilitated IC developer

Re: What is Inflation?

He basically means that inflation results in the debasing of the value of currency.

4 (edited by Gladiator 08-Feb-2009 07:14:54)

Re: What is Inflation?

I got until "Now we can add the Obama Years to this list."

I would've read further on because it seems like something I would've been interested in, but I really have no tolerance for arrogance now a days. It's just sad, and takes the fun out of what could've been a great topic.

Re: What is Inflation?

Agree with Gladiator here, would be cool if you could just explain what inflation is without blaming the Democrats as you always do. I also stopped reading after "Now we can add the Obama Years to this list."

Lemming of Fountains and Eltie Worshipper

Re: What is Inflation?

Flint is of the opinion that over the next five years inflation will be between 50 and 500%?

This would mean a sustained inflation rate per year over five years of 8% to 38%

So far Flint's predictions for the future:

A civil war in the USA

Obama becoming a fascist dictator

A sustained inflation rate of up to 38%

Seriously Flint, take a dose of reality and stop the wild hyperbole. It is just spam. You may as well open successive threads saying "Aliens from Pluto are going to kill us all", "Robots are going to take over the world" and "Sea monsters to destroy humanity" and then blame that on Obama too.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: What is Inflation?

I don't read anything flint posts that is longer than 4 sentences anymore because usually nothing he says is true. The "facts" he posts are either extremely biased or have nothing to support it. He doesn't even label something as an opinion, just what he says is a fact. It's pretty much a waste of life.

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: What is Inflation?

Well historically, countries with huge debts have frequently experienced hyperinflation.

Re: What is Inflation?

i see more arrogance with gladiator and his "OMG-obama-is-god-lulz" friends. Give flint a chance to explain himself. I remember just a few months ago you were all quick to tell us that bush caused hurricane katrina and the housing crisis and he planned 9/11 and he invaded iraq for oil so he can get richer. So... flint pointing out that we may have inflation of 8% is not very outrageous. Infact it is common sense economics. You don't have to have a major in economics to know the things he has explained clearly in his post.

Re: What is Inflation?

You need a degree in bullshitting, which  nowadays they hand out in the streets, it wasn't always like that.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: What is Inflation?

"I remember just a few months ago you were all quick to tell us that bush caused hurricane katrina and the housing crisis and he planned 9/11 and he invaded iraq for oil so he can get richer"

I have never said any of these things. The fact that other people may have said these or similar things does not in any way mitigate my criticism of Flint. Also, Flint's claim of 8% inflation is 8% sustained over the course of 5 years and is at the most conservative end of his estimation which goes right up to 38% sustained over five years. 8% inflation sustained over 5 years is extremely unlikely but is still far more likely than his other "predictions" such as a US civil war, an Obama dictatorship or inflation rising to 38% sustained over 5 years.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

12 (edited by Wild Flower Soul 09-Feb-2009 19:36:40)

Re: What is Inflation?

Guys, stop bashing Flint.  In this case, it's much easier to address his argument.


First, let's go to the causes of inflation.

You overspecified the second and third causes of inflation.  The thing is, inflation is a natural result of economic growth for multiple reasons.  First, there is the wage inflation that you talk about.  But second, there is just the general increase in purchasing.  An increase in purchasing justifies a business raising the price, which raises standards of living, causing wages to increase, creating the cycle.  I wouldn't say your models are wrong, but you specified them to the point where we don't evaluate all instances of inflationary causes.  For example, your model wouldn't take into account oil and food price increases during early '8.


Now anyway, what's the issue?

1: WE ARE IN A RECESSION!  That means inflation can't happen from wage-based inflation.  Normally, inflation and economic growth trade off because if money will be worth less in the future, people will spend now.  Also, the increased supply of currency allows easier access to the goods and services needed.  Even a stagflation period is impossible under modern circumstances unless Obama really screws up (which I'll get to momentarily).  That leaves the following scenarios:

Increase in the price of key goods and services
We get out of the recession first, then your hyperinflation happens
Or we become possibly the unluckiest society ever, suffering from both hyperinflation and economic growth without resource changes, in contradiction to most economic theory... and even then, the US would probably pull a Hitler and redo the currency.



First, I need to address stagflation (I will concede that stagflation would make your scenario possible, if stagflation were a possibility).

Stagflation is when we experience both economic decline and inflation, simply enough.  However, since, under normal circumstances, economic growth trades off with inflation, normal inflationary trends can't cause this.  The only way stagflation happens is when the price of key resources (i.e., oil) rises, forcing businesses to raise their prices.

So for your scenario to happen, a key resource would need to become unavailable during Obama's administration.  I'm going to start going through them:

Oil: Possible.  However, the current low oil prices are being caused by the global economic downturn.  That means that for oil prices to rise, normally, the recession would have to be lifted.
Political factors could cause a rise in oil prices (i.e., if the US attacked Iran).  However... hmm... is it just me, or does Obama seem like the type who wouldn't be hardline on bombing Iran?
Oh, and an alternative energy initiative would shut this one down the drain.  But that actually brings me to my next one...

Food: Yeah, we've heard it a lot.  Food prices are rising.  Ethanol probably causes it.  However, there are non-ethanol biofuels coming into the market which don't cause the tradeoff with food.  Maybe just a hunch, but I have a feeling ethanol specifically is going down the tubes, either due to a switch to a different biofuel or due to a larger energy initiative.

That means stagflation is impossible.  Pure and simple.  For your scenario to be true, we have to get out of the recession, and getting out must cause inflation.  You have not explained the "getting out of the recession" part of your scenario, so it has no credence.  You need to first outline the scenario of how the economy will rise because that is a key factor in whether your hyperinflation scenario can be true.  Quite simply, tell me a story in your next post.

I also want to look at a couple of your arguments:

First, that cutting taxes on the rich will reduce their response to inflation:
1: That's a temporary fix, at the very best.  If taxes were 40%, and were lowered to 35% due to 5% inflation, then there may be an offset the first year.  But year 2 (assuming a 2% inflation this time, because we're assuming something has been influenced by your policy), a 2% cut would bring inflation to 33%.  But you don't get the benefit from the previous year because that five percent reduction was based on the assumption of the previous year's inflation.  It's still compensating.

2: Economic growth trades off with inflation.  If you lower taxes on the rich, that allows them to spend more, actually CAUSING inflation because it increases the demand for certain goods, increasing the price for those goods (Any idiot can produce economic growth whenever they want.  Macroeconomics is about balancing growth and inflation).

3: We want some inflation.  Maybe 1-2% inflation is actually desired by the government.  Why?  Because if we're not experiencing inflation, we're experiencing deflation (the status quo), which really sucks because it stops people from spending altogether.  If you think inflation is a bad vicious cycle of economic decline, deflation should be your worst enemy.


As for printing money....


HOLY [] SHIT!  WHERE THE HELL DO PEOPLE GET THE IDEA THAT BUSH/OBAMA ARE JUST SITTING AT THEIR XEROX MACHINE MAKING HUNDRED DOLLAR BILLS?  ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS?  I HAVE YET TO FIND EVEN A SINGLE QUALIFIED SOURCE THAT SAYS THE GOVERNMENT IS JUST PRINTING MONEY BLANTANTLY!

Now that I got over that... there is one way you could be right.  While the US government doesn't have the authority to print money (anymore, at least), the Fed does have the authority.

The Fed's current method of "printing money" is through monetary policy.  That's already factored into the economy right now (interest rates), soooooooo there's no effect.  smile

And by the way, if the government were to stop "printing money," as you put it, then the economy would go into the shithole immediately.  Why?  Not because we need the extra money as a crutch to stimulate growth (the amount of actual bills produced is extremely small), but because that currency produced is used to lend to banks temporarily to prevent the banks from going bankrupt due to large withdrawals of cash by depositors.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: What is Inflation?

inflation was what you did to tires.....

Re: What is Inflation?

Very close to printing money and LOTS of it

http://www.imperialconflict.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=51842

I'm going to be nicer promise

Re: What is Inflation?

"Well historically, countries with huge debts have frequently experienced hyperinflation."

Yes, but not all of them tongue
Belgium's a great example of that. Our national debt is the highest in the Euozone, yet our economy's suffering less in this economic crisis than most other countries and we're experiencing a deflation tongue
A statedebt is an important factor in hyperinflation, but it's not a determining element...

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: What is Inflation?

Not to mention that there's no correlation between the debt itself and hyperinflation.

Germany, for example, had hyperinflation not because of debt but because it payed off the debt in a stupid way.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: What is Inflation?

Justinian and Red Rooster you get credit for reading and not immeadiately saying "Flint is full of bullcrap" or "Oh he insulted my Messiah, I must ignore the rest immeadiately!".

Zarf! You sir however get an A++ for actually debating and bringing up valid points.


The case for Hyper Inflation:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/Current/

Look for table 7, then look at balance at Federal Reserve

Next look for Appendix Table 6 and notice the alarmingly large numbers


Then you need to consider the net income our government 'normally' earns. This is about 2.6 trillion prior to the recession/depression.

Now in the end of Bush, prior to the jumping with the 700 billion bailout and smaller sudden expenses, we had 9 trillion debt.

After the bailout they raised the total allowed debt of the United States to 11 trillion. Now this is of sudden interest to me, but I digress.

After the current spending bill passes this will grow to 11 trillion.

However considering the unemployment issue at 3.6 million jobs lost out of 152 million odd jobs.

Now take the plan Obama has. He increases the government jobs by 400,000... which I argue will become permanent in a so called stimulus bill. Not a normal spending bill.  The normal spending bills will follow after wards, and what are the odds a Democrat of his history, of the history of Pelosi, and of Reed gives you an idea that this will not result in an increase in those positions again?

But I digress.

Coal

That is the commodity which will be destroyed. Obama and Biden ran on it, it can be fixed up by the EPA, skipping Congress entirely, and will be happening soon.

Further add in the other kinds of spending he has in this bill. Hybrid cars, wind and solar, and other expensive, do not replace their costs as quickly as coal, n. gas, oil, nuclear and hydro power does. Then also look at various certain States efforts to raise the gas tax as high as they think politically viable.

The perfect storm is there, right there, for hyper inflation.

A growing very fast super deficit, a Congress and White House which do not know how to reduce spending, a coming energy cost spike on electricity, and run away government spending.

Oh and toss in the banking information with how much cash the fed created from no where to protect banks, the cash created from no where to prop up European banks as well, then the amount of secured loan requests from banks to the Fed and Federal Government, and you forget to examine the trade situation... The Baltic Dry Index, look it up man, there wont be products available like they were before.


Oh damn I almost forgot... The coming trade war

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/26/biofuels.energy
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/International_Business/Are_EU_US_edging_towards_trade_war/articleshow/4091358.cms

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the coming trade war.


My argument is that hyper inflation is a near certainty. This is where to few products are made, and yet to much money is also made to be.

Of course there will be products still in normal availability, but then I also argue that worrying about the coming hyper inflation will induce hoarding of certain items including food. Everyone I know personally is hoarding food as quickly as they can. I plan to give my mother $300 to buy certain foods every other week, on the cheap and stock it up on her property. She is using her acres as a personal farm this coming year, and will be preparing for the worst, as I am in my own ways.


There my counter argument is laid out, will you reply again fair Zarf?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

18 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 09-Feb-2009 07:31:35)

Re: What is Inflation?

In a few hours.  smile




EDIT: I may be alright at making arguments, but I suck at keeping to deadlines.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: What is Inflation?

You sir are the ONLY opposition poster who can post an intelligent argument, and usually you want to be on my side, but are just such a good devils advocate you can argue from any standpoint. I will be back tommorrow to see your post.


To bad there are no leftists in this forum who can make sound arguments and stand by them, as well as read and understand my or other conservatives arguments and counter with sound reasoning of their own.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: What is Inflation?

"You sir are the ONLY opposition poster who can post an intelligent argument, and usually you want to be on my side, but are just such a good devils advocate you can argue from any standpoint. I will be back tommorrow to see your post."

How odd, my post was a solid argument, yet you just ignored it (how typical!)

"To [sic.] bad there are no leftists in this forum who can make sound arguments and stand by them, as well as read and understand my or other conservatives arguments and counter with sound reasoning of their own."

YOu ignore us anyway, as proven in my previous line tongue

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: What is Inflation?

Flint, too bad you don't say anything sensible enough in a concise enough way for people to bother reading the whole of your drivvle or to consider it worthy of a thought out response.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: What is Inflation?

I just want to say that this is entire thread is tl;dr.  Of course, that could be because I'm slightly sick right now and am about to go back to bed.

Praise Kek

Re: What is Inflation?

I miss the days when posts that large (first one) had to be broken into several posts tongue

Insane Lemming of Drama Queens and Other Hyperbolical People

1431 ftw

Re: What is Inflation?

I like the bit where he said he made $10/hr for 8 years.

Must have been at that job where he was a security expert.

I think they made a movie about him, Paul Blart-mall cop.

Re: What is Inflation?

"How odd, my post was a solid argument, yet you just ignored it (how typical!)"

no, you didnt.