Topic: Definition of State Sovereignty

hey I am asking you all what definition of state sovereignty you like best.

my reason for this is that I am part of the debate team at my school and our topic is this:
The U.S. ought to join an international court designed to prosecute crimes against humanity.

At first glance at our resolution, I think of the ICC and then I think of state sovereignty. For a good negative case against the resolution I thought I would use state sovereignty as my value criterion (u dont need to know what this means)

Since the ICC has to violate state soveriegnty in order to try certain leaders. for example, the ICC suspects that Israel has committed crimes against humanity so they decide to overthrow the israely government and try the top military officials and maybe even ehud olmert himself. This would cause mass chaos just to gather the evidence and suspects. This is why I believe that international institutions are powerless and harmful to world peace.

My definition of state sovereignty would be
A states ability to have absolute power within it's borders and have full rights to attack other individual states if the security of its own people are threatened. A state also has the choice to protect the human rights of it's own citizens but is not oblgated to.

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

Rooster,

Seriously, all you need to do to win this argument is ask this.

"Please provide empirical support or how I would test that the US ought to do anything." The libs will be unable to provide an answer to your question, because there isn't one.

Then you can go on to say that the evidence supports the hypothesis that states pursue their own interests and power.

You will win hands down.

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

what needs to be done is the main world powers need to get together, and for each individual country they need to get the leader to institute a law that allows the international court you speak of to hold investigations in thier country, making it so its not a violation.  To do this most of the world powers would need to be dedicated to it. They would have to be consequences to not signing, being cut off from trade from all countries part of this international court and such.  middle eastern countries would be the hardest to get, but slowly i am pretty sure that each country would join the international court.  and if a country thats not part of the international court needs help for something, it may be required that they join it. Then you could have a court taht could leagally try and convict from a number of countries on crimes against humanity and such...

just an idea really, i havent put too much thought into it, but i believe it could work.

this probably wouldnt be touched on in a debate though would it?

Aquaman: Because how many crimes ACTUALLY occur under the sea...

4 (edited by avogadro 01-Feb-2009 22:24:30)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

"A states ability to have absolute power within it's borders"

nope, that would be a totalitarian government. most, infact all states dont have absolute power within their borders. people have certain lvls of freedom; its unrealistic for a state to have absolute power in its borders. Uncontested would be a better adjective, or possibly Supreme.

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

Though there are intergovernmental systems. Where one does not super seeds the other in certain areas.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

i would argue that the US joining an international court would threaten the rights and freedoms of our people that our constitution is supposed to protect. the court would have the power to overrule our national laws, policies and constitution.

7 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 02-Feb-2009 02:32:37)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

Hey, Red Rooster.  Give me your email.  I'm an assistant debate coach, and can help you.  Fairly good at LD, PF, and policy.  In fact, I'm sending this message from a debate tournament.  smile


(That is, unless you're from my region, in which case you're on your own)


If you don't want to give me your email, just set up an ingame empire or something.  Whatever.  I like helping out debaters.  It's what I do.  smile



I think your definition, overall is... hmm... interesting!  You take a much more hardright stance than most debaters will, which I think is freaking awesome!  Just know that you're opening yourself up to lots of 2AC securitization, war, blah blah blah kritiks.  Then again, that would depend on the judging pool.


As long as you've got a fairly good block in defense of militarism, you should be fine.



Oh, and as for the "that's totalitarianism" thing, screw democracy.  Let me explain how that debate will turn out:

You give your 1NC.  7 minutes.
They give the 2AC.  4 minutes.  One of their args is "waaah, that's totalitarianism you defend."  They can't defend this argument very well because of time constraints.  If they do put an impact on totalitarianism, it may be an extension of one of their 1AC advantages, which you've already answered, or they'll read one card at the maximum.  If they read more, they probably screwed up somewhere else in the debate, and you exploit this to no end.
You give your 2NC.  6 minutes.  You say "hell yeah, who needs democracy?"  Read Hobbes, or go to one of your friends who does policy debate and see what democracy bad files they have.  Maybe spend 2 or 3 minutes dumping democracy bad on them, or just put a couple cards in your 1NC an extend them.
Their 2AR.  They get 3 minutes.  They'll never be able to cover all your arguments.  Game over, you win, and it's their fault because, since they made the "totalitarianism is bad" argument in the 2AC, it justifies you responding with cards in the 2NC.


(Oh, this tactic would depend on the judging pool.  Some judging pools don't like asshole strategies like the above, for obvious reasons.)  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

8 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 02-Feb-2009 02:35:31)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

> Father Communism wrote:

> what needs to be done is the main world powers need to get together, and for each individual country they need to get the leader to institute a law that allows the international court you speak of to hold investigations in thier country, making it so its not a violation.  To do this most of the world powers would need to be dedicated to it. They would have to be consequences to not signing, being cut off from trade from all countries part of this international court and such.  middle eastern countries would be the hardest to get, but slowly i am pretty sure that each country would join the international court.  and if a country thats not part of the international court needs help for something, it may be required that they join it. Then you could have a court taht could leagally try and convict from a number of countries on crimes against humanity and such...

just an idea really, i havent put too much thought into it, but i believe it could work.

this probably wouldnt be touched on in a debate though would it?



Um... hmm... probably not.  Little procedural issues would prevent that from being debated.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

i dont think the joining an international court would threaten americans rights as long as they dont commit crimes against humanity. The point of the court would be to estabilish a worldwide standard in the treatment of people.  America has gone into other countries to quell civil wars and to find and stop terrorists that have commited crimes against humanity, in some instances making mistakes on which side to take.  If The american goverment is sticking with the role of bettering the world, its only proper to join a court validifying its right to meddle in others afairs.  I think that such a court is needed in todays day and age, and if a country that so heavily leaves its own borders for the sake of righting wrongs, it should do so in the right way.  You cant rightfully enfore standards on a country if your not able to adhere to a standard.

Its not who has the bigger stick is right...

this is not a question of americans loosing rights...this is about protecting thier rights...and not allowing them to get away with things that violate the rights of others. 

the only reason i see a goverment not agree to this is because they want to be able to do crimes against humanity and get away with it if they want.  All other reasons against are just excuses to hold that power.

now im pressing submit without checking or editing, since i have to go now, please dont be mad if i repeated things or made grammer mistakes and such tongue

Aquaman: Because how many crimes ACTUALLY occur under the sea...

10 (edited by Red_Rooster 04-Feb-2009 01:59:42)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

beeblebrix my email is [ooga booga] and my region is around the southeast... im from south carolina and i do the ld form of debate

so any help would be greatly appreciated

11 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 03-Feb-2009 02:27:13)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

Awesome, you're nowhere near me.  I'll contact you as soon as possible, but I'm on a screwed up internet right now, and can't get to my email.  smile


EDIT: Had to remove a horribly outdated interjection.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

12 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 03-Feb-2009 23:00:50)

Re: Definition of State Sovereignty

Sent you my email a little while ago.  You can delete your email from here if you want.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...