Pithy comments like that are adorable. You retain all of the arrogance without ever engaging the content. Why don't you try telling me where you disagree; why I'm wrong? I obviously don't have any trouble telling you specifically what's ridiculous in your posts. What's the matter? You're SO witty but you can't respond to simple questions?

Are you serious? You're vague and never respond to anything you find wrong with my posts. I point out my moral problems with your ideology and you ignore them. I point out the outright lies of your ideology and you ignore them. You respond vaguely and off-point to the few things that you respond to.

I said that we already have much more welfare than you are aware of, as indicated in your post. You respond that a "tiny %" of people misuse it. You miss the point.

I point out that you pay a huge portion of your income in taxes and this greatly reduces your ability to purchase the healthcare and other services that you want, as opposed to whatever your government gives you. I point out that the money required to purchase these services for yourself is considerably less than the taxes a person of even lower middle-class income pays in your country. You respond that you like being taken care of no matter the cost, and ask me for dollar figures which are of no use to you. We have a range of care options with a range of prices. We have free options for people with no/low income. Telling you how much I pay for healthcare doesn't mean anything.

You're afraid of content. Cry more.

Justinian is a Student...so, he is exempt from many of the taxes I pay.

ALSO..... Schniep, Im at the top of the food chain.

In Germany, Is the tax rate FLAT or graduated ?   Does the top earners pay the same % ?

In the US :

ALL Earners pay the SSI/Medicare tax.  Thats a fixed % of 6.5 by the employee, matched 6.5% by the Employer.

Now....Note this:  that 13% of MANDATORY withholdings goes to be administered by the state....not to the individual.
IF Anyone dies, this withheld fund does not get returned to the wage earners estate.  That money that was SUPPOSED to be for your retirement, is now gone to the system.

ALSO NOTE:  this "Matching portion" that the "EMPLOYER" Pays....is actually a cost of employment, and is really paid by the Employee.  In other words, if there was no such thing as SSI/Medicare tax, that would go to the cost of employment, or the employee.

I have X amount to pay for a position.....that X Includes all taxes/costs of employment for that position.  This same fact applies to all my competitors where X is the same amount.   Follow ?   Its simple math, and simple economics on the micro level.

SO, when you say, "My Employer pays that portion"  Its really you.

The X+ factor is the matching funds to a retirement account that YOU Control.  In the US We call them Pension funds and/or also 401K(Private sector)/403B (Govt. Sector) Funds.  These funds, if you die, DO go to your estate.  When an employer matches....thats an added cost to employment, the X"+" factor. 

As an economist, I encourage ALL to always put in max amount UP TO THE Employer matching amount.  ALWAYS take advantage of this angle.  ALWAYS put in MAX Match if you can afford it.  This money grows TAX Differed, and is not taxed until you draw on it.

Also, tax advantaged individually controlled IRA(Indiv. retirement account) are tax deductible, or tax deferred with govt. mandated CAPS (Max amount in.)

Schiep, My Fed withheld, of 38%, I get a lot of that back, to be fair.
Stuff like Interest payments on my home mortgage, Money I pay for my Children's Education, Money into private retirement accounts, are all deductiple at the end of the year, and I get that tax that was withheld back.

Mind you, that money I get back, is NOT with interest......the govt. holds my money interest free.

Again.....Im at the top tax bracket, those making less could have as little of 18% held at the Fed Level.

ALSO, I live in New York City.....so the New York State, and New York City portions are AREA Taxes.....Justinian from the South, may have no State or Local taxes.....he also may live in a state w/o Sales tax.  Again thats a local/state tax on all FINAL Sales....its not a VAT tax.

You see, in the US...if you are in the low income bracket, Like you seem to be, ESPECIALLY if you had a family making that amount of money......You would QUALIFY for a state sponsored (Socialized) Medical Plan.
If your wife is Pregnant, WIC (Womans and Infants.... not sure of rest) you get coupons for Milk/Juice/cereal/Fruit.  for Pregnancy, and through infants first 2-years.
You qualify for "Section 8" that is a large portion of your RENT gets paid by the state.
You qualify for Low Income Housing.   If you live in an area designated for Housing assistance, you can get a Subsidized Low cost FIRST HOME BUYERS house.

You qualify for Low income Mortgage.  (This is where the Federal Govt. Got in trouble, and caused the housing bubble)  You can get favorable, gimmick loans that have the front end (2-5 years) of very low mortgage payments.   These then adjust to full price later, assuming you might/would have climbed the income chain.  If not, you could sell your house, grasp the Capital gains from the sale, and roll it into a new House, or refinance and do the GIMMICK all over again......Assuming the Value is in the house to do this.
Guess what.  If the house looses value, you cant do the Gimmick again.....OOOOOooopppppssss.... This is what happened to the US Housing market.
Thank yous SOCIALIZED, FEDERAL Housing administration...... Known as FHA.

Your kids get Free Lunch in school.   Get Tuition assistance, Federal and State grants for College......Etc.

Dude.....guess what.  My kids dont qualify for this.
My family doesnt qualify for the above.
I do get a write off for these above expenses off my taxes though.

SO.......I hope this helps you show, the US is not so evil and does MORE THAN enough for low income/No Income

What OBAMA wants to do, is push the Envelope out further.
To the point where the System collapses.......Like the Federal Housing market did.
You push it out to the point where there is NO GROWTH....or very LITTLE GROWTH.....

Almost like the Euro System.....very small GDP Growth.  Very small individual wealth building.
In a system/Govt. of dramatic control like this....It is VERY HARD to escape the Envelope of the Govt. Mandated and Controlled Umbrella of coverage.

The system is so giving, that there is no Motivation, no incentive to push past the envelope. 

No incentive to GROW personal wealth.....

No incentive to persevere, to develop, to improve and to prosper.

I tell you the truth, its getting very hard for me to increase my business size.  The Govt. keeps trying to take all the wealth I can generate.....and this new Administration looks like that ENVELOPE is FINALLY going to swallow me up.

To be honest, this does include the Socialist Republic of New York State, and its Partner New York City.

Oh yeah, I just found out something interesting just now.

Schiepel,

There is a tiny little country just above Germany, which is more free-market than most of the rest of Europe, and it's doing a lot better than any of you. It's also anti-immigrant and more conservative.

>>you come here and post things like "inflated prices and ineffective systems without giving any proov... wehn it comes to giving some sources or proove you fail blatantlly.<<

You want me to cite a source that my taxes plus healthcare costs are less than 38% of my income? Do you want my tax returns? What a joke.

>>I read your moral problems with my ideology.. I said many times it depends on the point of view.<<

Like I said, I know an explanation is beyond your capacity to give. It's not like this is a discussion forum or anything. No one expects you to be capable of a discussion here.

>>Yes you point that out but you forget that if i would not be a part of the public healthcare and such i would yes get more net income.. but would have to pay a almost similar ammount into private insurances.<<

Almost similar amount, yes. That is, a dissimilar amount. And you would have choices. I'm glad we agree that I'm right and you're getting inferior services at inflated prices whether you want to pay for them or not. I should also note that your healthcare system itself suffers from this inefficiency. You don't have all of the latest technology under government care. How would you pay for it? You can't.

>>but no your deny it. because you are lazy or scared you will come to a conclusion you maybe wont like.
We can go on arguing if you go and get me the numbers so we can compare who pays what and what is more efficient.
but as long as you keep saying "inefficient inflated" without any proove. there is no need to go on talking about it.<<

You're making the claim that government run healthcare is more efficient than the free market. You go get us the numbers, dumbass. If your claim was true it would be the first time in the history of mankind. You're so educated and brilliant but you want me to get numbers for something that's never failed to be true, as opposed to your position, which has never been true.

>>explain this to me then please.. this was what i was refering to when i talked about the lil % missusing the system. the quote above appears to be quiet obvious about that topic.<<

What are you talking about? You don't have a point. You have no numbers for the "tiny" percentage of people misusing it. And the number of people abusing a system is irrelevant; you're content with an abusable system because you claim that not many people abuse it? That doesn't make any sense. I merely pointed out that even in Amerika with its lower tax rates than yours we already have free care available to much of the population. I asked some common sense questions asking for the merits behind paying unlimited dollars for anyone, regardless of any other considerations. That's what socialized medicine is. I also probed your knowledge of Amerikan healthcare at present which you must know about to be comparing to yours. You admittedly don't.

>>You forget that i need no ability to buy me private healthcare and other services because they allready are payed by my taxes.<<

It's nice that you are content with whatever they give you. The point is that this system robs of you any choice unless you are rich. Your system takes away choice from everyone who is not rich. It's a system that favors the rich and hurts the poor.

>>funny to see that most threads u debate in end up in people blaming you for being an arrogant ignorant person.<<

You keep talking about facts, but you don't hesitate to make this claim without any numbers. Which leads to my next point: Who cares? The majority of this forum is teens who haven't finished highschool. We have idiots like Decimus and ADD kids like the one wanting to discuss how magical robots will perform all labor for mankind within 25 years and how the government is morally obligated to produce these robots. Arrogance coupled with willful ignorance is rampant in idiot teens the world over today. Of course all of you morons who ignore the content of my posts are going to cry. I ask on-point questions directly assaulting your presumed "facts" that you make up and don't even know you're doing it. You claim that government-run healthcare is more efficient than private care, offering more services for less cost. But I know damn well you can't find a single nation on earth where this has ever been true. Everyone who's old enough to pay for their own healthcare (if they have that option) knows this, especially those who have had well over $1,000,000 of medical services in their lives. But You're asking Me for numbers to prove this. Why would I bother? I have better things to do than find numbers you wouldn't read or understand anyway. I doubt you do. A fact is that I've shown plenty of the research facts you ask for here in many threads when I happened to have them on hand. A fact is that arrogant, willfully-ignorant, self-righteous teens don't access the information in front of them. If it makes you feel better to know that your nanny government runs your life, then you're going to claim that it's efficient, moral, and gives you more choices than governments which let you live freely without taking all of your money to pay for other incompetent morons. I can respect someone who prefers a more nanny-like state. I've even dated a socialist and had a great time doing it. But she was educated. She could have a discussion. We knew where we stood. We didn't make up "facts" then demand that the other prove something which is common knowledge when we made ridicuous claims. That'd just be a stupid waste of time. Like this is.

- - - - -

>>I get a lot of that back, to be fair.<<

Expect this fact to be glossed over. It'd be inconvenient to address the truth.

FYI, foreigners: NYC is awful. I lived 14 miles west of it for about 4.5 years. No wonder BW has achieved such a high tax rate.

- - - - -

>>yeah, your morals must be different because you were raised by crooks surrounded by crooks.<<

I just love that he doesn't even offer an explanation or justification for his desire for a nanny-state in the face of all common wisdom (and by wisdom, I mean knowledge supported by every statistic ever compiled. Want facts? Look at my income and standard of living compared to yours. Look at my potential for upward mobility compared to yours. Don't know how to compare these things? Go to school.). He just says that he'd prefer that the people in power in his country handle more of his life and mine too. He doesn't bother to explain why he has the right to mismanage my affairs and waste my money doing it. He claims that's impossible. So intelligent.