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Imperial Forum → Politics → Stimulus Package ?? Team BO is doint a JOB
Oh yea....quite a package to "Stimulate" the Economy.
You can see the Sarcasm. But, I will leave it there, for now.....
What do you all think?
Maybe a couple of links are in order?
Here's a link for you: http://mises.org/story/3310
The best stimulus is no package at all. FDR never improved the economy with his New Deal, he only prolonged the Depression; and WWII, believe it or not, didn't fix things either (although it did give us a distraction). Let the market run its course, set their own interest rates, and return the dollar to the gold standard; that's the best medicine anyone could prescribe /any/ economy anywhere.
government intervention is like complicated surgery; it can cure the patient in various degrees but it may as well leave him off much worse than he was and with less money in his pocket to boot
it is silly to claim that it is always better to let the economy run its course; good economic policies will greatly improve the economy, the problems are knowing what to do and then being able to do it, neither of which are easy when dealing with a hugely complex entity such as the US economy
/ME takes a bow to East
Bring back Bush, his polices were great. He didnt lead the US into the quicksand like everyone believes, that was the doing of the democrats in congress.
He had no other way to damage our natoin than to spend trillions more that no one has. Nothing like massive debt to **** our children. We've been lucky that we've been able to float so much for so long. Let's not pay it off; let's push it and see how far we can go before we crash! We already did it with credit! That turned out great!
As far as most retarded Amerikans are concerned, Republicans controlled congress on election day. Obama really reached out a message of education. What informed decisions.
Sometimes stimulus packages are a good thing.
I'm not all for government intervention in this situation but I don't see much of that in this plan, it's more of infrastructure spending, tax cuts and other well spending projects. I don't see what's wrong other than offcourse the debt but atleast it will get a lot of people a lot of jobs. From the plans I've seen it should make our current operations more efficient not just energy efficiency but cost/time efficiency as well which should help in the long run.
Offcourse debt is not so great but I like what will be done with it so I'm not really against it.
It'll make the country run better atleast 
America needs to kick Texas out of the union, and let them leave with the debt. After they declare bankruptcy you can add them back in and you're debt free. 
>>I don't see what's wrong other than offcourse the debt but atleast it will get a lot of people a lot of jobs.<<
Paying people with a debt all taxpayers owe is just a drain on the system, not a benefit.
>>From the plans I've seen it should make our current operations more efficient not just energy efficiency but cost/time efficiency as well which should help in the long run. <<
Yeah, weighing what will be spent on "energy efficiency" vs what will be saved as a result will pay off. It will save us money overall. In about 800,000 years.
Welfare is not a "tax cut." Stop raping the English language.
>>I don't see what's wrong other than offcourse the debt but atleast it will get a lot of people a lot of jobs.<<
you do know that even if it generates as many jobs as Obama hopes, we would be paying over $215,000 per job gained?
and then when we're in a recession and the big three are on the verge of bankruptcy, its a great idea to force them to produce vehicles that consumers dont want.
government cannot create wealth; what Obama is doing is destroying wealth. if the ways he plans to spend the money actually generates wealth, people would already be doing them; its spending money to create things that arent needed and he's creating waste and burning cash that we are going to have to pay for through inflation and through our children.
"and then when we're in a recession and the big three are on the verge of bankruptcy, its a great idea to force them to produce vehicles that consumers dont want."
well the next step would be to make the consumers to want such vehicles...(tax reduction for efficient cars.. heavy taxes on heavy consuming cars etc....)
I know you americans are a few years late with this.... maybe too late now..
we have same problem in germany with our car industry.. they thought it would be better to keep producing those big energy consuming cars (like bmw, audi, mercedes (only porsche can do this.. porsches need to be big and unefficient...)and they all did).. now they are surprised that no one is buying their cars anymore... while everyone keeps buying energy efficient french or japaneese or romanian cars...(they also are cheaper.. even the french...)
Make consumers want such vehicles? Government needs to learn its place. People need to learn to put it there. I'll pay for whatever car I want and the "energy" to drive it as much as I want. More government involvement, be it legislating what I should want to drive or bailing out idiots who are too poor at their jobs to run their companies just costs us all money. There is no reason I should be paying for anyone's mistakes. It's just hurting us all to cator to special interests while they convince you that they're doing it for you.
There's no reason we should discuss government "making consumers want" something. Buy what you want. I'll buy what I want. As long as you don't steal from me to legislate all kinds of garbage under false pretenses everyone has more, we waste less, and the free market lets auto makers who provide better cars (and the ones people want) at better prices flourish and companies run by idiots who make sub-par cars at ridiculous prices fail. Wasting our tax money to keep them afloat to waste more money in business (they've already wasted a lot to turn such huge profits this century into losses) just takes away from all of us. It's just bad business. All of this rightous garbage is just justification for continued failure and theft.
It's not as complicated as a lot of people like to pretend. I like my '73 cuda. I intend to buy a new Harley Iron 883 later this year. Why would my government be using my tax dollars to tell me what kind of car I should want? I waited until I had the money to buy my new Harley (awesomely cheap price! free market at work again!) and the government will only make the things I want more costly the more it gets involved. And that's true of anyone. Aren't you tired of idiots stealing from your standard of living? I was getting taxed 17% washing dishes a decade ago making barely over minimum wage. Obviously that % has only climbed to an even more outrageous portion of my earnings since. Should we waste X amount to bail out this company and waste X amount legislating to 'save' people money? Maybe I'd even have a lovely boat already if all this waste in the name of 'for our own good' wasn't already happening and getting worse. I wouldn't mind a boat!
"Government needs to learn its place"
This unfortunatlly allways depends on the point of view of the goverment and its population.
For sure you can buy whatever car you want... no democratic goverment in the world can forbid that...
What they can do is working on the taxes for the car (i dont know if you have that in the US) and on the taxes for fuel (also i dont know if u have that in the Us but i think so).
And sure.. you are still free to pay that ammount of money... if you want and can.
In germany car tax has just been changed... now its like the bigger your engine the more you pay.. and also.. the more Co2 is emitted the more you pay. At least the CO2 part is something that makes sence to me...
Now i know you dont care for global warming and such and prefer playing the selfish guy... you complain about debt for your children.... but what will your kids do with a polluted world? no matter if they have to pay back debt or not they will [w00f!]
Ok its not prooven that humans change the climate.. but it is very possible..
if you afford to buy 100k euro audi then your prolly afford to pay extra 100 euros per year taxes
You're high and mighty when you decide that everyone should pay the government more. Then you're high and mighty when you complain that the cost of living is too high and we need the government to provide more things to more people. I don't understand you because I do not understand how terrified incompetent people are when they look at the world and realize they need to live their lives. Good thing we can vote socialist and give the altruistic government unlimited power to run more of our lives. What a relief.
Your moral failing is that what you support is by nature corrupt and inefficient--you do more than choose it for yourself; you require others to buy into it with a donation taken from their standard of living for a diminished return, because you don't care enough to educate yourself and do the math. What you claim to want (justice and a higher standard of living for all) is in actuality, in fact beyond any opinion or debate, supported by every crunching of the numbers in recent history where it is enacted to every degree, hurt by what you propose to pursue it. You have no moral right or authority. Fear is the best tool to control the sheep. I don't question that. Convince them it will give them piece of mind over fear and they'll fight for you to maintain your power. It's a perfect tool of the trade. But it doesn't give you any moral right or authority to take from others because you can. I made a simple post arguing that freedom is inherently valuable and that massive taxation should be viewed from the position of requiring justification in order to impose increased costs of living on individuals living their lives. You immediately responded without any such justification but with bad math.
I don't think anyone has an issue with basic Social Contract theory. But you go leaps and bounds beyond it without any explanation. You just presume we must all see it as the right thing to do because you do. And everyone who points out that it doesn't work just doesn't get it. You don't even bother responding to their content. They're just assholes who don't care about future generations. What do they know with their history and ethics and economics. You're pursuing economic and social justice! Your cause is righteous!
PS. My engine is bigger than anything Audi has ever made. My car is more "rigid" and "aggressive" in collisions (ie, it won't crumple and smash its occupants in order to give more cushion when your inability to drive brings your crumpling tin can into collision with it). And I payed far less for it than you priced an Audi. And, though I've done some fine back-road driving at high speeds in a Audi with nice handling while stoned out of my mind, that's beside the point; just like your bad assumptions of automotive costs and automotive CO2 emissions destroying the world. My Automotive CO2 emissions and how they would be lessened if I drove some Hundai junk that's less safe for its passengers are nothing compared to global corporate industrial output. But such corporations have big money and lobbyists. You choose not to educate yourself and target massive CO2 producers while claiming that CO2 is your big concern. You jump from bad science to the presumption without justification that massive taxes on what you presume is a luxury is fine. Your stated motivation (CO2 emissions) does not match your proposed action (limiting the CO2 production of something that does not produce a large portion of our CO2 production).
"we have same problem in germany with our car industry.. they thought it would be better to keep producing those big energy consuming cars (like bmw, audi, mercedes (only porsche can do this.. porsches need to be big and unefficient...)and they all did).. now they are surprised that no one is buying their cars anymore... while everyone keeps buying energy efficient french or japaneese or romanian cars"
thats not our problem. our problem is everyone buys inefficient cars and the government is forcing the car industry to build energy efficient cars theres no demand for.
"For sure you can buy whatever car you want... no democratic goverment in the world can forbid that... "
why would you think that? ofcoarse they can forbid that; democratic government is run by masses. you scare the masses you can forbid them from anything you want. hell, arent Plasma TV's getting banned in the EU?
Lol Kemp.
I wonder what post u reply to.
Where do i complain about cost of living?
Also YOU are the one being high and mighty by saying the system U prefer is the one EVERYONE loves and which is right.
I simply have another view on goverments as you do. You now are the one blaming me for things i never did.. in the typicall arrogance we are all used from you.
Kemp.. i immediatlly replied without ANY maths.. i really wonder what you read....
and if i am allowed to quote myself..
"At least the CO2 part is something that makes sence to me..."
i extra said it makes sence to ME.. ME unimportant little being who has to decide who i will vote the next election.
i am sorry if you are so well educated that u understand written things in a different way then they are writen by normally educated people.. I am sorry my highness...
Also i have to say it is U and only U who is insulting other people in this forum in this case. Its you in your totally narrow minded point of view.
Its you who is telling other people they are not educated if they dont agree to your point of view.
Look I live in a country which pretty high taxes.. around 50% of my monthly income go away for taxes and welfare state.
i still am able to live a live being worth living. I still consider myself to be a happy human being.. and i am lucky i dont need to worry about anything at the moment.. but i think you would not believe me i am happy and all well since i do not live in your freedom loving american system.
I live in a country with a huge welfare state and BIG economically success.. i can
avo no they are not lol.. i never heard about that also...
could you give any sources about plasma tvs please..?
also could it be everyone is buying inefficient cars because there are no compareable efficient cars..?
if the entire populace wanted to pay for something, there would be no need to tax for it, they would just donate their money to it. Taxes by definition is armed robbery. there is no morality to it. it is you saying you want other people's money to benefit your interests and [w00f!] interests.
i think i've read other places it was more along then this link, but for now, this is the best i can do, gotta go to work. http://www.oled-info.com/eu-ban-power-hungry-plasma-tvs
if u think taxes are robbery fine.. i dont know what to argue against that.. go live with deci in some anarchist area.
i allways had the feeling my taxes are used for something everyone is benefitting from.. roads.. schools, military and such...
also everyone here is free to go away and live somewhere else...so if they dont agree to th solidarity this country is based upon they could leave and join u in your anarchist area.
Why do you think election promises almost always include lower taxes?
Because everyone wants lower taxes. So how about we lower taxes and you can leave and go live somewhere that has high taxes if thats what you want.
"if u think taxes are robbery fine.. i dont know what to argue against that.."
its not opinion its fact. you might approve of the robbery, but thats what it is. they dont ask people to pay their taxes, they demand it.
definition of robbery ": the act or practice of robbing ; specifically : larceny from the person or presence of another by violence or threat"
does the government get people to pay their taxes by threat? yes, it does, its robbery.
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