> Econamatrix wrote:

> Im surprised no one has raised the issue of rape, especially in the case of incest.

In many instances any children born from either of these situations won't be loved. Even if you didnt consider how these kids would be raised, what about the woman? Giving birth to a child who's father raped you, or was related to you, I couldn't imagine how traumatic that would be.

oh perhaps we should be allowed to have exceptions. hmmm... riiiiight

first of all, the claim that they wont be loved isnt valid. if given up for adoption, which i bet happens most of the time when rape is involved, usually leads to the kid ending up in a loving family.

2nd. abortion itself is often a very traumatic event for the woman

3rd, to claim alittle bit of discomfort justifies the killing of an innocent human is ludicrous.

> avogadro wrote:

but the kid could be a lawyer. and you could say on average the kid wont be a lawyer, but on average, the person getting the abortion wouldnt be a future lawyer either.>

That was just an example, lol. I wonder if you're just getting nick picky now?

Anyhow, yes, only around 15% of the population are working professionals. But despite that, an ill prepared woman who has an abortion is more likely to live in poverty (and classes tend to reproduce themselves) if she does not have an abortion, and more likely to live a middle class lifestyle if she is able to post-pone reproduction. Moreover, the class drop is also likely to affect the father and continue in the child. Ultimately, the probably costs saved from welfare and court procedures and the probable increased revenue from more resources invested in to a better career makes abortion a very effective cost cutting measure.

> avogadro wrote:

> "
That was just an example, lol. I wonder if you're just getting nick picky now?"

it was an example, but my reaction was just an example and could be used for any profession.>

... Well if you say that few people are computer programmers, ok. But computer programmers are part of the middle class, which is defined by income, where a large number of people are members.

> Justinian I wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> "
That was just an example, lol. I wonder if you're just getting nick picky now?"

it was an example, but my reaction was just an example and could be used for any profession.>

... Well if you say that few people are computer programmers, ok. But computer programmers are part of the middle class, which is defined by income, where a large number of people are members.

it could be used for any class as well

"When we consider class, I don't see what the point is. If you doom a large percentage of people who could be members of the middle class (which is doable for most people) in to poverty, you compromise the economy."

banning abortion doesnt do that. you're talking about 1-2 months where the mom would have to take time of working towards furthering her career to have the baby.

"The only problem is that demand for adoptions exceed the supply of foster care parents. And that's just unwanted pregnancies that did not result with abortions."

first of all, there is a huge number of parents seeking babies. absolutely huge. they are hugely in demand so much that parents search the globe for them. 2nd, even if every qualified couple had their demand for children filled; orphanages could take care of them, which forces no one to a lower class and still provides a profit for society as a whole once the kids grow up.

"This isn't just a matter of "oh we can replace them with someone somewhere," it's also a reduction of consumption which is a reduction of economic growth potential."

chances are that the lives saved by banning abortion would fill many more mid class jobs where they would consume more. and if someone is stupid enough to ruin their life, most likely they wouldnt be good at a lawyer anyways.

Ok here's my simple solution to the abortion argument; If you don't like abortion don't use it but acknowledge that the moment you try to make it so no one else can use it you are being a dick.  It's like the kid at a birthday party who rips apart the "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" poster because he personally doesn't like it.  Western society is based on freedom and trying to force other people to bend to your point of view is an immense contradiction of that unless you can make a case for the current practice being harmful to society, that's why murder's illegal.  However considering it takes 20+ years before a child is actually useful I don't see you having much success.  It's like arguing against uprooting a sapling because it MAY grow into a large tree that MAY stop a car from being hurled into your living room during a tornado.  Banking on the potential of something is perfectly understandable, it's why we don't just kill off half the children after kindergarten, but banking on the potential of it's potential is just ridiculous.

"its funny how you talk about how bad it is to force other people to bend to your point of view, but apparently have no trouble killing completely innocent people who dont have a say in the matter."

None at all.

"a fetus isnt someone that has a small chance of becoming a human adult. he will become one unless something tragic happens to him, just like a child. he's just alittle lower in the process."

No a fetus is someone who has a small chance of becoming a child.  Birth complications, miscarriage, etc. there are a lot of things that can go wrong in those 9 months.  A child is a person with a small chance of becoming an adult.  And I'm not even talking about just potential of reaching the next stage of life I'm talking about them reaching the next stage of life and being useful.  Lot's of kids grow up to be utterly useless people.

Reproduce

"The majority of people have to contribute to society or society would have been drained long ago and would not exist."

not the majority, the average person though.

I'm not an "anti-abortionist," but I doubt you'd stump anyone with a brain. With this question or anything else.

A10 and avogadro

This is where the difference of opinion lies. The loss of a few cells that may (because they dont always) one day turn into a person is not murder. Murder is when you kill a person. A few cells are not a person. ie vearly term is acceptable to me, later is not. Perhaps you should make the release of any semen other than when making a baby illegal, because those cells may one day also turn into a baby. Yes extreme example but they are just cells, that may also turn into a person under the right conditions.

I said giving birth to a baby that came from a rape is traumatic, and yes so is termination avogadro. Apparently you would consider yourself so high and mighty that you would decide for every woman that she must choose the birth option when, for many individual woman, the choice of having some cells removed from her body would be a much better option. Do you know anyone who had to make this decision. I do, my second serious gf. After going out with her for a few months she told me that she had to go through this, and the bringing a new life into the world, whos father was a rapist, would have torn her apart, so she CHOSE the best course of action for herself.

You seem to have find more value in some cells that are yet to form anything resembling a person (already addressed what I think of timing so no need to go there, its a cliche), than a real life woman who has been raped and is an emotional mess, needs support in making her choices, and not being told what to do by some person sitting on a pedistal.